[Misc] HR Nightmare

[hans kraay fan club]

I guess that this could be an accumulation of the employee’s behaviour but seriously, getting bent out of shape over being 5mins late sounds like you might be a bit OTT here.

Yes people shouldn’t be late but honestly, unless my guys are routinely 15+ mins late, if they are doing their work properly then I don’t care. Of course some sectors this can’t apply to like customer service where you need to be on the desk/phone etc so ignore me if that’s the case.

Nickle and diming your staff over little things like 5mins is always going to get backs up tbh, and will encourage people to become petty. Though clearly being late for things such as a train to a client visit is clearly unacceptable, so I don’t think you are wrong in respect to this employee. Just maybe something to think on more broadly.

My attitudes to this depend completely on whether it is a one way street.

I've a lady currently who'd regularly arrive 5 or 10 minutes late, but stressed about it. She asked to see me one morning, and seemed a bit upset. She explained that she gets two buses to work. The bus she gets SHOULD get her here on time, but if its held up - she'd be a few minutes late. To guarantee arriving on time, to get the previous connecting buses, she'd have to leave the house an hour earlier. She was prepared to do so - if the few minutes were a problem.

We just agreed that she should continue to catch the normal bus, and make up any time by shortening her lunch (she only sits at her desk anyway) - and only if the delays got any worse, would we need to review it. In short - she's a decent sort, so you want to be decent / accommodating in return.

Conversely, we had a woman previously, who would arrive EVERY DAY 5 minutes late (in her car) - and it did used to grind at me. Because I knew she didn't NEED to be late, and I knew that SHE knew that it was 'only' 5 minutes, so I'd look a prick for making anything of it. But I did anyway - simply because there was no give and take with her - she'd arrive every day late, but would always be sat (literally) with her coat on and her car keys in her hand, ready to bolt for the door at 5.30pm. I can't be doing with that.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

UPDATE!

We had a meeting with said employee one month ago, HR the lot, it turns out, the issue was a lack of communication from said employee, and we have now agreed targets and better communication methods etc

Fast forward one month and whilst the attitude is better, performance is still not that great, and recently, their attendance record has fallen behind. Which is a big issue from last year too. We understand they suffer a little with anxiety, which hasn’t helped, and we have to tread carefully with this, however, its also persistent lateness.

Furthermore this week, they were late yesterday, not much of an apology and usual excuse, didn’t make the time up after, it was 5mins. 1 or 10 mins, I think you should be seen to rectify the lateness. Today, I was taking this employee to Manchester Airport to visit a client of ours. I advised time of meet for the train, they then phoned running late and I am now visiting said client by myself. £124 train ticket to waste.

This employee has shown glimmers of hope in performances, but ultimately, they have also been out of desperation and this then has lead to rushing and making errors.

We are looking at disciplinary action now, I think I am at my tether and they need to go but we MUST make sure we’ve followed HR and employment law.

Just to add, all this tardiness effects our efficiency as a team and ultimately, money in my pocket.

Just do it by the book, mate. Keep a record of everything. When you trigger action don't include all the small things or it will look like pettiness and pursuit of an agenda. But make it known there are numerous smaller items of consternation.

Best wishes

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I guess that this could be an accumulation of the employee’s behaviour but seriously, getting bent out of shape over being 5mins late sounds like you might be a bit OTT here.

Yes people shouldn’t be late but honestly, unless my guys are routinely 15+ mins late, if they are doing their work properly then I don’t care. Of course some sectors this can’t apply to like customer service where you need to be on the desk/phone etc so ignore me if that’s the case.

Nickle and diming your staff over little things like 5mins is always going to get backs up tbh, and will encourage people to become petty. Though clearly being late for things such as a train to a client visit is clearly unacceptable, so I don’t think you are wrong in respect to this employee. Just maybe something to think on more broadly.

I won't tolerate a minute late for a planned meeting due to 'whatever'. We can all understand 'events', but the problem here isn't the extent of lateness it is the relentlessness of it and the lack of any recompense or even apology, by the sound of it.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Over the 30+ years I was a manager I saw a big change (deterioration) in the quality of HR managers, with a few exceptions. I have seen a trend in which it is easier for HR to find fault in the behaviour of the manager, particularly junior managers, than the staff member. Where I worked this seemed to be because their main concern was reputational risk. For this reason the language you use when talking about any case to HR is important. Statements about an individual; like 'this person is...doesn't like' etc will enable HR to say that the line manager was judgemental and not unbiased. It is always best to talk about specific actions or behaviours and their consequences. For example this person being late meant that others were taken away from their duties to cover. The more facts and evidence the better.

 

[CheeseRolls]

With poor time keeping it is very much down to circumstances and impact. If the work gets done, doesn't necessarily cut it, if the work gets done by other people, but generally it isn't a biggie. Missing trains for client meetings without a good reason is not acceptable. My approach was always to talk this through with employees in advance to make sure they had thought about childcare issues etc and were not going to get let down by one bus an hour to the station.

A couple of things to consider.

1 If you manage to get rid of this employee how confident are you that a replacement will be recruited? Sometimes a half hearted employee can be better than none at all.

2 Be prepared for HR not to back you. Their best outcome is a reconciliation, which creates the least work for them and makes them seem useful. If you feel they are taking this approach, stick to your guns and be polite but assertive. Make it clear you have lost trust and confidence in this employee. Otherwise they are just pushing their work back onto you.

 

[Littlemo]

I won't tolerate a minute late for a planned meeting due to 'whatever'. We can all understand 'events', but the problem here isn't the extent of lateness it is the relentlessness of it and the lack of any recompense or even apology, by the sound of it.

That’s why I did say it sounded like an accumulation of things in this case, it’s clear the employee isn’t performing as they should do.

I just wondered if it extended to other, well performing staff. I do agree with Hans Kray’s fan club, it depends on other aspects such as why they are late and their attitude to it. I just think that getting to why people are late, and adjusting if possible, can be more effective than giving people a bollocking for it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That’s why I did say it sounded like an accumulation of things in this case, it’s clear the employee isn’t performing as they should do.

I just wondered if it extended to other, well performing staff. I do agree with Hans Kray’s fan club, it depends on other aspects such as why they are late and their attitude to it. I just think that getting to why people are late, and adjusting if possible, can be more effective than giving people a bollocking for it.

True.

And to play devil's advocate, some people can seem disengaged, off-hand, lazy, disorganized and un-co-operative because they have issues in their lives that perhaps they are reluctant to discuss at work.

I see this with students, some of whom slip into a spiral of failure due to events.

Some, however, are simply lazy pricks. Eventually due process will reveal which is the actuality.

 

[portlock seagull]

I loath HR managers, they’re next to useless and only represent the company / their own self interest. They are most certainly not working in the employees interest as many foolishly believe when an injustice comes along. If you have a strong sense of fairness and or right and wrong as I do you’ll be disappointed most likely or even angry. They’re a pointless department, and never used to exist because they weren’t needed. They’re a modern workforce creation, like H&S, which in the main is utter goonship.

Work for a small caring business or yourself, and avoid all this shite altogether. Anywhere with an HR “department” is a red flag for me. (unts. All of ‘em.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I won't tolerate a minute late for a planned meeting due to 'whatever'. We can all understand 'events', but the problem here isn't the extent of lateness it is the relentlessness of it and the lack of any recompense or even apology, by the sound of it.

I always turn up a couple of minutes after the due time in the hope that nobody else can be bothered to sit through the crap either.

It doesn't work very often, so I invariably have to sit there wondering how much more of the inane verbiage I will have to suffer before I can get out and actually do something useful.

 

[schmunk]

I loath HR managers, they’re next to useless and only represent the company / their own self interest. They are most certainly not working in the employees interest as many foolishly believe when an injustice comes along. If you have a strong sense of fairness and or right and wrong as I do you’ll be disappointed most likely or even angry. They’re a pointless department, and never used to exist because they weren’t needed. They’re a modern workforce creation, like H&S, which in the main is utter goonship.

Work for a small caring business or yourself, and avoid all this shite altogether. Anywhere with an HR “department” is a red flag for me. (unts. All of ‘em.

I fear with an attitude like that you're never going to see eye-to-eye with any responsible HR / Finance / Risk / Compliance / Whatever department. They're all a necessary evil for businesses to a) have good governance, and b) be seen to have good governance (by regulators, shareholders, the general public, etc. etc.)

 

[Dave the OAP]

I have been away from work for 2 years now but looking at @Harry Wilson's tackle posts, does anyone follow the Lombardi rule about meetings?

it’s something the sir Clive Woodward introduced to our company and basically the American baseball Coach, Vince Lombardi set up a system whereby you arrived at a meeting 10 minutes before it started fully prepared , the agenda being distributed in proper time so people knew what was going on!

it soon fell apart as people felt meetings were a waste of time and energy and got in the way of surfing the net

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have been away from work for 2 years now but looking at @Harry Wilson's tackle posts, does anyone follow the Lombardi rule about meetings?

it’s something the sir Clive Woodward introduced to our company and basically the American baseball Coach, Vince Lombardi set up a system whereby you arrived at a meeting 10 minutes before it started fully prepared , the agenda being distributed in proper time so people knew what was going on!

it soon fell apart as people felt meetings were a waste of time and energy and got in the way of surfing the net

It all depends on the type of meeting. I normally prep for the weekly mitigating circumstances (star-goat ate my homework) meetings the day before. I prep for the school education quality assurance meetings the hour before. The animal license presubmission committee....I'll turn up on time but only bother listening when the blather factor reaches critical levels of nit picking and hand wringing. Otherwise I take the camera off and surf the internet.

 

[Chicken Run]

I’d love to be a 20 something again but in todays work place, it seems that you only need to be incredibly average these days to stand out from the rest of the field lol

 

[Dave the OAP]

It all depends on the type of meeting. I normally prep for the weekly mitigating circumstances (star-goat ate my homework) meetings the day before. I prep for the school education quality assurance meetings the hour before. The animal license presubmission committee....I'll turn up on time but only bother listening when the blather factor reaches critical levels of nit picking and hand wringing. Otherwise I take the camera off and surf the internet.

Perfect

 

[portlock seagull]

I fear with an attitude like that you're never going to see eye-to-eye with any responsible HR / Finance / Risk / Compliance / Whatever department. They're all a necessary evil for businesses to a) have good governance, and b) be seen to have good governance (by regulators, shareholders, the general public, etc. etc.)

Attitude like…? FFS, I can testify to scores of peoples experience that’s summed by. I’d say your attitude by reply is the problem. That or you’ve no experience / no idea what taking about?

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I used to manage a sales team and had two staff members who lived about an hour away by train.

Once a fortnight without fail one or the other would be late because of ‘problems with trains’. When I mentioned about them staying late/coming in early to make up the hours lost their attitude was that it was unreasonable as it was not their fault it was the train and I was lucky I lived nearer the workplace.

HR were useless, even with my investigative screen grabs contradicting their claims that the only trains they could catch had been cancelled on several occasions.

 

[Weststander]

My attitudes to this depend completely on whether it is a one way street.

I've a lady currently who'd regularly arrive 5 or 10 minutes late, but stressed about it. She asked to see me one morning, and seemed a bit upset. She explained that she gets two buses to work. The bus she gets SHOULD get her here on time, but if its held up - she'd be a few minutes late. To guarantee arriving on time, to get the previous connecting buses, she'd have to leave the house an hour earlier. She was prepared to do so - if the few minutes were a problem.

We just agreed that she should continue to catch the normal bus, and make up any time by shortening her lunch (she only sits at her desk anyway) - and only if the delays got any worse, would we need to review it. In short - she's a decent sort, so you want to be decent / accommodating in return.

Conversely, we had a woman previously, who would arrive EVERY DAY 5 minutes late (in her car) - and it did used to grind at me. Because I knew she didn't NEED to be late, and I knew that SHE knew that it was 'only' 5 minutes, so I'd look a prick for making anything of it. But I did anyway - simply because there was no give and take with her - she'd arrive every day late, but would always be sat (literally) with her coat on and her car keys in her hand, ready to bolt for the door at 5.30pm. I can't be doing with that.

With the second lady, did you initially try the faux light-hearted “good afternoon” on each late arrival?

 

[schmunk]

Attitude like…? FFS, I can testify to scores of peoples experience that’s summed by. I’d say your attitude by reply is the problem. That or you’ve no experience / no idea what taking about?

Well, there you go again...

 

[hans kraay fan club]

With the second lady, did you initially try the faux light-hearted “good afternoon” on each late arrival?

No.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Anyone remember digweeds trousers spat with HR?