NorthstandRacoon
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #41
May be you are just a f***ing arsehole to work for
Maybe! But it takes one to know one, hey Justice?!
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[Misc] HR Nightmare
- Thread starter NorthstandRacoon
- Start date
Maybe! But it takes one to know one, hey Justice?!
el punal
Well-known member
My response may be somewhat outdated as I was in a similar position as you a good few years back. Anyway, here goes:
I am presuming that the person you are dealing with has a job description and contract detailing what’s expected of them in their role. If yes then they have signed up to that and are obliged to fulfil that role.
If your member of staff is not fulfilling their role (for whatever reason) and duties not being carried out it is fair to say that a verbal warning, then a written warning, should be issued. Whatever happens make sure copies of this are retained and that HR and other parties are informed - called covering your arse.
If the problem still persists a formal meeting should be convened with that member of staff, yourself and a senior member of HR (or similar) present. A record of the meeting and contents be made. You can call this a final warning meeting where it’s made categorically clear that this person needs to improve to the standards required (insert a time frame and periodic assessment) or face dismissal.
A word of warning - make sure that you are 100% correct with all the facts regarding the matter, and secondly, that you have records of all communications with this person both verbal and written. That way you have done your job as a manager in a correct and precise manner.
I am presuming that the person you are dealing with has a job description and contract detailing what’s expected of them in their role. If yes then they have signed up to that and are obliged to fulfil that role.
If your member of staff is not fulfilling their role (for whatever reason) and duties not being carried out it is fair to say that a verbal warning, then a written warning, should be issued. Whatever happens make sure copies of this are retained and that HR and other parties are informed - called covering your arse.
If the problem still persists a formal meeting should be convened with that member of staff, yourself and a senior member of HR (or similar) present. A record of the meeting and contents be made. You can call this a final warning meeting where it’s made categorically clear that this person needs to improve to the standards required (insert a time frame and periodic assessment) or face dismissal.
A word of warning - make sure that you are 100% correct with all the facts regarding the matter, and secondly, that you have records of all communications with this person both verbal and written. That way you have done your job as a manager in a correct and precise manner.
Hampden Park
Ex R.N.
- Oct 7, 2003
- 4,993
Shit in their handbag/manbag, simple 
What are the odds the employee involved is under the age of 25? Seeing this happen more and more with Gen Z.
Good luck OP. It can be challenging in a new management position. Also need to remember the effect this employees actions can have on other members of the team. If it seems that he/she can get away with it - others will too.
Good luck OP. It can be challenging in a new management position. Also need to remember the effect this employees actions can have on other members of the team. If it seems that he/she can get away with it - others will too.
I get the feeling that part of you is exasperated because you simply expect the employee to do the right thing, and that you have consequently taken your eye of the ball (see post by @hart's shirt above). Don't get emotionally involved. Do everything by the book.
I had to chair a disciplinary appeal recently where an employee was behaving worse than yours, playing the full hand of 'not receiving sufficient training', 'unrealistic expectations', 'depression', 'age discriminations'..... the problem was there was an email trail of contradictory management communication with the employee praised and criticized for the same thing in a different contexts, and some examples of what could be construed as rudeness and bullying by the line manager.
You may have to step back for a bit to allow all the ducks to be lined up, and I wouldn't expect the situation to be resolved quickly.
Unless you get blamed when your person doesn't do their job, it isn't actually your problem at the end of the day. So make sure you have covered your arse.
Millennials managing Generation Zombies, what could possibly go wrong
It is much older people causing problems where I work. Late 50s, early 60s.
- May 8, 2018
- 10,637
Firstly document everything - this protects you
Secondly engage with HR and follow their lead to the letter, even if you don’t agree with everything, this again protects you, which is the most important thing from your perspective.
Don’t lose your cool in any situation with said employee, they may know the game and will press buttons and in turn use it against you.
Line management can really be a **** sometimes
Secondly engage with HR and follow their lead to the letter, even if you don’t agree with everything, this again protects you, which is the most important thing from your perspective.
Don’t lose your cool in any situation with said employee, they may know the game and will press buttons and in turn use it against you.
Line management can really be a **** sometimes
Has anybody checked the betting habits of Roberto's translator? See Shohei Ohtani for translators gambling habits. When you are outside seeing lots of money changing hands you start to fantasize about getting some for yourself.
- Apr 19, 2018
- 2,135
Same. Some millennials have different expectations about what they want out of work, and often that's not a bad thing either, but any credible research tends to show there's actually no difference between generations in terms of productivity and if anything millennials can be more driven simply because they have to be to afford the kind of lifestyle and housing many of us older people took for granted.
Justice
Dangerous Idiot
One of my colleagues recently had their annual performance appraisal.
Negative thing raised: "you can be too challenging and difficult and emotionally involved - such as by raising the issue of x,y,z"
Positive thing raised by the same manager: "not afraid to raise difficult issues, and good at finding creative suggestions and solutions to problems - example is where you raised and dealt with x,y,z".
Yes - the same x,y,z issue that they were also criticised for raising....
My first appraisal: I had just move from one London college to another, having obtained a lectureship. Key point, since I didn't have my lab built and was still collaborating with my former boss, "Needs to get more research going on this campus". Following year, with my new lab up and running "needs to get more research collaborations off campus". Ten years later my new HoD lost his notes of my appraisal, and I had to email him my recollections 3 months after the fact. He then lost the email (no idea how anyone can do that). Fourteen months after the appraisal (and 2 months after my subsequent appraisal) I had the third version of my appraisal (which I wrote myself, from memory, making most of it up) signed off.
In recent years HR have created a proforma, with various sections about plans for next year, ways that the success of plans will be measured, and updates on the successes of plans made last year. In a separate section one can list successes and achievements. In another section I can list achievements on research and future plans. In another section I can list awards and prizes for research. And so on.....
One advantage of the proforma is you can rename it and move the plans bits into the achievements section on a rolling year on year basis. Except....(yes, you guessed it) HR 'improves' (changes) the proforma each year so a copy-paste is impossible. And in any case, the formatting of the proforma is as it if were created on Word on a Windows 97 platform by someone who doesn't know how to use Word. Type something in the wrong place and you can't rescue the document without help from an IT specialist. Luckily we don't have any IT specialists sufficiently lowly to be able to help with Word formatting.
The pretense is that appraisals are there to help us develop our career. The truth is they are a tool to feed into a redundancy narrative., But even that is a fail, and I know of nobody sacked, ever, after a sequence of poor appraisals.
So appraisal is nothing more than a make-work exercise for HR, who don't even realize it is simply a makework exercise for HR.
chip
Well-known member
If your system is anything like the one we have in my institution, over the years you also become the appraiser of your former appraisers after watching a few videos and multiple choice questions to show you can fill the form in. But, as you say, no one ever gets sacked for poor performance. I always ask if there will be a voluntary severance scheme in my appraisals now. I think I have turned into one of your late 50s colleagues who causes problems, but only for the people I think cause problems. Again, mostly late 50s/early 60s.
Indeed.
We introduced a 360 degree appraisal system for a while. That was swiftly abandoned when the feedback towards managers was negative!
We also have a 'staff-survey' every year. The results of these are obscured and blended - and when I asked why, I was told that it was because the negative responses about one manager were 'too easily identifiable to them'. So, by 'hiding' it all, that manager (the worst I have ever known) survived for 14 years - when they should have been driven out after just a couple of years.
Just a thought and maybe trying to help you see another side, but is their job description and or day to day process not agreed or clear? If thats not clear then neither of you are going to get on well no matter what. I'm sort of reading between the lines with your sentence above about "I have asked them to do something over the last 2-3 weeks, that will help them in the long run..." my thought would be surely they should know what would help them in the long run? and from their perspective from their manager, asking isn't asking, its telling. Some people hate that, I know I would.
Just sounds a bit micro-managey to me? My teams are clear what they have to do and by when, and they have the autonomy to improve their own destiny, but within certain controls. They know what those controls are 100%, as thats part of their onboarding, so they come to me with improvements, and probably 9 times out of 10, they are spot on and we implement and move forward. As I'm now ancient and have managed more teams than I care to jump over, the biggest skill I mostly employ is keeping my mouth shut, which is hard, as I can be a gobby know it all...
sussex_guy2k2
Well-known member
- Jun 6, 2014
- 4,083
So bully them into submission basically…
I’d argue this is the worst attitude to take. Most people rock up to work to try and do their best. Maybe there’s a personality clash here. Maybe this person feels overlooked or not recognised.
If you always assume the worst, you’ll constantly be in a race to the bottom in terms of employee standards and motivation.
The Grockle
Formally Croydon Seagull
Sounds like you've exhausted ways in which to manage this employee, it's tike to make it someone else's problem IMO
I'd make a note of all conversations , reference where HR have already been involved then arrange a meeting with HR and your superior. Explain what steps you've taken, how this employee has failed to make the necessary improvements, the impact its having on the overall team performance THEN drop the mental wellbeing/health bomb, Explain how managing this difficult situation is affecting your mental health......They'll have to act as they have a duty of care and get someone else to performance manage him.
I'd make a note of all conversations , reference where HR have already been involved then arrange a meeting with HR and your superior. Explain what steps you've taken, how this employee has failed to make the necessary improvements, the impact its having on the overall team performance THEN drop the mental wellbeing/health bomb, Explain how managing this difficult situation is affecting your mental health......They'll have to act as they have a duty of care and get someone else to performance manage him.
el punal
Well-known member
If you’re referring to my ‘input’ here then you’ve got the wrong end of the stick. Of course you praise and encourage those that you are responsible for who are doing a good job. Likewise you sympathise with those who have a problem at work and try to resolve the problem.
On the other hand there comes a time when certain measures need to be taken, putting it bluntly - someone taking the piss, and issues addressed, and that‘s what my post was referring to.
clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 25,877
That rings very true. Rolled up to into an "engagement" score and they won't tell you how they calculated it.
I asked for the scores on a question per question basis but was refused, even though other divisions were given it that way.
The excuse was for "confidentiality reasons". I was simply asking for a question break down for the whole organisation.
360s were also abandoned. Not myself, but I saw it being used as a tool to settle old scores.