How much is the Referendum Campaign influencing you?

[pastafarian]

Last point. Democracy isn't one of the main issues. It's one of the issues that the Brexiter politicians are hiding behind as a driving force to gain themselves more power. If you think this is about anything other than handing Gove and Johnson more power, you're fooling yourself.

Democracy is a major issue,the only people that consider it isnt are those that dont mind being controlled by Brussels.

Rather than gaining more power think of it as returning power that was previously held but given away.

 

[larus]

How condescending do you want to be? They're wrong?! Diversity and embracing multi-cultural societies are two very valid reasons to stay as a part of the EU.

Any insinuation that the Brexiters aren't heavily falling back on the 'dirty foreigners' argument as a major reason for leaving is an insinuation that you've not been listening to the arguments the past few months. You only have to read a few of these pages to see sly digs at Eastern Europeans, Germans etc.

Last point. Democracy isn't one of the main issues. It's one of the issues that the Brexiter politicians are hiding behind as a driving force to gain themselves more power. If you think this is about anything other than handing Gove and Johnson more power, you're fooling yourself.

And how does being governed by the EU exactly stop multi-cultural societies. Yes, the BREXIT side are lying about immigration, but then he REMAIN see are lying as much about the impact off the economy. I mean, the IMF says 9.5% drop in GDP for crying out loud. Worse than after the Wall Street Crash. Complete and utter fiction.

And, as for being condescending, my 18 year old daughter and I had a conversation today about the subject, and she said the she wasn't going to vote (and nor were her friends) as hey didn't understand. So, with respect, unless a lot of these youngsters want to read up on the structure of the European institutions, the structure of the EURO and the plans for ever closer union, then I don't think he should listen to his kids.

Last point, in my opinion, democracy is one of the main issues. Immigration is irrelevant as we will have to agree to the free movement legislation if we want access. And, the economic arguments are crap. It's not everyone agreeing with what the elite club are saying. Melvyn King (one example) has stated that he thinks we would be stronger outside of the EU. I want more control of UK laws in the House of Commons, but by unelected EU commissioners.

 

[larus]

Good points, well made.

Surprise, surprise. Baa, baa.

 

[BUTTERBALL]

I finally made my mind up when the near-record net migration figures for 2015 were released last week. 3 and three quarter Wembley stadiums full of people arrived in Britain last year without the infrastructure or jobs to support them. It's a leave for me.

The scaremongering about the economy is just that. I don't want bloated, bureaucratic Brussels running our country any more. I want our national identity back and for us to be able to put the 'Great' back in Great Britain again. Let's control our own destiny once and for all.

The wall-to-wall media coverage is boring now too.

 

[Winker]

I think the referendum campaign is asking and answering all the wrong questions. The one and only question should be along the lines of:

Do you think that the United Kingdom should be a parliamentary democracy run by an elected and accountable Government in London, Yes or No?

 

[jaghebby]

There are a number of arguments around the debate that I have a real problem getting my head around especially from the Brexit side. Firstly, immigration last year the net immigration was a net figure of 330,000. However, 147,000 were from non EU Countries so how will pulling out of the EU mean the government will be able to stop this level? And off those from the EU how many plan to stay here and how many are short-term contracts. If we do pull out then to access the single market (something that UK was a leading light in getting introduced!) we would more than likely still be required to allow free movement of workers! Something that hasn't really been raised in the debate so far - the UK has an ageing population. From 2012 to 2032 the populations of 65-84 year olds and the over 85s are set to increase by 39 and 106 per cent respectively whereas 0-14 and 15-64 year olds are set to increase by 11 per cent and 7 per cent respectively. So we need people of working age to generate tax revenues to fund things such as pensions and the NHS to help support the ageing population!

Secondly, leavers bang on about the un-elected commission forcing all these laws onto us. But is this true? Exactly how many of our laws come direct from the EU. It seems that Acts put in place by our Parliament which have "incorporated a degree of EU influence" is apparently something like 10%- 14% This varies from ones which make only a passing reference to EU obligations to ones where the main purpose of the Act is to implement EU obligations. The lower percentage in this case is reached by looking only at those implementing EU laws or measures. So in reality the figure is pretty low hardly a case of an un-elected undemocratic commission controlling our lives! Admittedly a there are a lot more regulations and statutory instruments adopted but a lot of these would still need to be complied with even if we leave the EU if we still want to trade with the single market!

Finally, the economics of it and I do recognise that economic projections are very difficult to get right. However, most economists seem to believe that we are better off in and although there are odd ones that support the leave campaign just like there are a few scientists that deny global warming! However, for me I feel the majority view should hold sway. One thing is clear that if we did leave the uncertainty would have an impact maybe not a recession but our prosperity would grow more slowly. Markets also hate uncertainty so this is likely to negatively impact on the currency, stocks, shares and the cost of borrowing!

The EU isn't perfect but the leave campaign just hasn't demonstrated to me any real benefit to leave and exactly how things will be better. They spout sound bites that might seem appealing but by delving deeper they seem to me to talking rubbish. So for these reasons I am for staying.

 

[Hampster Gull]

There are a number of arguments around the debate that I have a real problem getting my head around especially from the Brexit side. Firstly, immigration last year the net immigration was a net figure of 330,000. However, 147,000 were from non EU Countries so how will pulling out of the EU mean the government will be able to stop this level? And off those from the EU how many plan to stay here and how many are short-term contracts. If we do pull out then to access the single market (something that UK was a leading light in getting introduced!) we would more than likely still be required to allow free movement of workers! Something that hasn't really been raised in the debate so far - the UK has an ageing population. From 2012 to 2032 the populations of 65-84 year olds and the over 85s are set to increase by 39 and 106 per cent respectively whereas 0-14 and 15-64 year olds are set to increase by 11 per cent and 7 per cent respectively. So we need people of working age to generate tax revenues to fund things such as pensions and the NHS to help support the ageing population!

Secondly, leavers bang on about the un-elected commission forcing all these laws onto us. But is this true? Exactly how many of our laws come direct from the EU. It seems that Acts put in place by our Parliament which have "incorporated a degree of EU influence" is apparently something like 10%- 14% This varies from ones which make only a passing reference to EU obligations to ones where the main purpose of the Act is to implement EU obligations. The lower percentage in this case is reached by looking only at those implementing EU laws or measures. So in reality the figure is pretty low hardly a case of an un-elected undemocratic commission controlling our lives! Admittedly a there are a lot more regulations and statutory instruments adopted but a lot of these would still need to be complied with even if we leave the EU if we still want to trade with the single market!

Finally, the economics of it and I do recognise that economic projections are very difficult to get right. However, most economists seem to believe that we are better off in and although there are odd ones that support the leave campaign just like there are a few scientists that deny global warming! However, for me I feel the majority view should hold sway. One thing is clear that if we did leave the uncertainty would have an impact maybe not a recession but our prosperity would grow more slowly. Markets also hate uncertainty so this is likely to negatively impact on the currency, stocks, shares and the cost of borrowing!

The EU isn't perfect but the leave campaign just hasn't demonstrated to me any real benefit to leave and exactly how things will be better. They spout sound bites that might seem appealing but by delving deeper they seem to me to talking rubbish. So for these reasons I am for staying.

Great post. You pose questions that the leave campaign have been unable to answer

 

[Deleted member 22389]

There are a number of arguments around the debate that I have a real problem getting my head around especially from the Brexit side. Firstly, immigration last year the net immigration was a net figure of 330,000. However, 147,000 were from non EU Countries so how will pulling out of the EU mean the government will be able to stop this level? And off those from the EU how many plan to stay here and how many are short-term contracts. If we do pull out then to access the single market (something that UK was a leading light in getting introduced!) we would more than likely still be required to allow free movement of workers! Something that hasn't really been raised in the debate so far - the UK has an ageing population. From 2012 to 2032 the populations of 65-84 year olds and the over 85s are set to increase by 39 and 106 per cent respectively whereas 0-14 and 15-64 year olds are set to increase by 11 per cent and 7 per cent respectively. So we need people of working age to generate tax revenues to fund things such as pensions and the NHS to help support the ageing population!

Secondly, leavers bang on about the un-elected commission forcing all these laws onto us. But is this true? Exactly how many of our laws come direct from the EU. It seems that Acts put in place by our Parliament which have "incorporated a degree of EU influence" is apparently something like 10%- 14% This varies from ones which make only a passing reference to EU obligations to ones where the main purpose of the Act is to implement EU obligations. The lower percentage in this case is reached by looking only at those implementing EU laws or measures. So in reality the figure is pretty low hardly a case of an un-elected undemocratic commission controlling our lives! Admittedly a there are a lot more regulations and statutory instruments adopted but a lot of these would still need to be complied with even if we leave the EU if we still want to trade with the single market!

Finally, the economics of it and I do recognise that economic projections are very difficult to get right. However, most economists seem to believe that we are better off in and although there are odd ones that support the leave campaign just like there are a few scientists that deny global warming! However, for me I feel the majority view should hold sway. One thing is clear that if we did leave the uncertainty would have an impact maybe not a recession but our prosperity would grow more slowly. Markets also hate uncertainty so this is likely to negatively impact on the currency, stocks, shares and the cost of borrowing!

The EU isn't perfect but the leave campaign just hasn't demonstrated to me any real benefit to leave and exactly how things will be better. They spout sound bites that might seem appealing but by delving deeper they seem to me to talking rubbish. So for these reasons I am for staying.

As for your questions, if we Leave the EU we can control migration from the EU, we can't do it any other way. As for Non EU migration, that is government thing and they should be doing a lot better at controlling the quality of who we allow in.

But look at this way, we should be taking people on what skills they have, not where they come from, that is the argument. We are kind of discriminating against people with skills from outside the EU, because of this ridiculous rules of free movement within the EU. We can't control a damn thing.

Look at the way things are panning out in the EU. Last year over 1.5 million people poured in to the EU from outside the EU. One day these people could become European Citizens, they will then get free to travel to the UK anyway. We don't know who these people are, what skills they have.

Hundreds of thousands of people are using this for a free ride to the EU, and that's not fair on the ones who are from outside the EU, who have skills, qualifications are going through the correct channels, and can make a positive contribution to our economy both financially and culturally.

It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing migration hitting 500,000 people a year the way we are going. It is unsustainable, we can't build enough houses, our infrastructure cannot cope, and at the end of the day we need to think our own quality of life, humans like space.

That is not the end of it. I am not including the illegals that enter the UK, 18 people got picked up across the channel yesterday, there are hundreds of people getting caught in the back of lorries and these are the ones we know about. This is a result of failed borders across the EU on it's own.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There are a number of arguments around the debate that I have a real problem getting my head around especially from the Brexit side. Firstly, immigration last year the net immigration was a net figure of 330,000. However, 147,000 were from non EU Countries so how will pulling out of the EU mean the government will be able to stop this level? And off those from the EU how many plan to stay here and how many are short-term contracts. If we do pull out then to access the single market (something that UK was a leading light in getting introduced!) we would more than likely still be required to allow free movement of workers! Something that hasn't really been raised in the debate so far - the UK has an ageing population. From 2012 to 2032 the populations of 65-84 year olds and the over 85s are set to increase by 39 and 106 per cent respectively whereas 0-14 and 15-64 year olds are set to increase by 11 per cent and 7 per cent respectively. So we need people of working age to generate tax revenues to fund things such as pensions and the NHS to help support the ageing population!

Secondly, leavers bang on about the un-elected commission forcing all these laws onto us. But is this true? Exactly how many of our laws come direct from the EU. It seems that Acts put in place by our Parliament which have "incorporated a degree of EU influence" is apparently something like 10%- 14% This varies from ones which make only a passing reference to EU obligations to ones where the main purpose of the Act is to implement EU obligations. The lower percentage in this case is reached by looking only at those implementing EU laws or measures. So in reality the figure is pretty low hardly a case of an un-elected undemocratic commission controlling our lives! Admittedly a there are a lot more regulations and statutory instruments adopted but a lot of these would still need to be complied with even if we leave the EU if we still want to trade with the single market!

Finally, the economics of it and I do recognise that economic projections are very difficult to get right. However, most economists seem to believe that we are better off in and although there are odd ones that support the leave campaign just like there are a few scientists that deny global warming! However, for me I feel the majority view should hold sway. One thing is clear that if we did leave the uncertainty would have an impact maybe not a recession but our prosperity would grow more slowly. Markets also hate uncertainty so this is likely to negatively impact on the currency, stocks, shares and the cost of borrowing!

The EU isn't perfect but the leave campaign just hasn't demonstrated to me any real benefit to leave and exactly how things will be better. They spout sound bites that might seem appealing but by delving deeper they seem to me to talking rubbish. So for these reasons I am for staying.

Many good points well made.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Many good points well made.

Scenario:
One worker from the EU and one worker from outside the EU both have the same set of qualifications.

The EU worker walks straight in to the UK
The Non EU worker has to go through loads of different channels to get here

This is why we need one system for all, a points based system, it is common sense in my mind. The EU system is open to abuse.

 

[Murray 17]

I had a conversation with my daughter recently as she's reached voting age. She was saying how all of her friends were remainers and she thought that reflected the feelings of young voters today.

She said if older voters are choosing what to vote thinking of their children then they need to vote stay as that's what their children would want.

Her generation are open to multi-cultural societies and diversity much more their parents and especially their grand-parents.

What experience of life has a 17 year old? Their views are generally idealistic.

I had lots of political conversations with my dad when I was that age too. I now agree with everything he said.

 

[looney]

There are a number of arguments around the debate that I have a real problem getting my head around especially from the Brexit side. Firstly, immigration last year the net immigration was a net figure of 330,000. However, 147,000 were from non EU Countries so how will pulling out of the EU mean the government will be able to stop this level? And off those from the EU how many plan to stay here and how many are short-term contracts. If we do pull out then to access the single market (something that UK was a leading light in getting introduced!) we would more than likely still be required to allow free movement of workers! Something that hasn't really been raised in the debate so far - the UK has an ageing population. From 2012 to 2032 the populations of 65-84 year olds and the over 85s are set to increase by 39 and 106 per cent respectively whereas 0-14 and 15-64 year olds are set to increase by 11 per cent and 7 per cent respectively. So we need people of working age to generate tax revenues to fund things such as pensions and the NHS to help support the ageing population!

.

You have to problems, excessive immigration from the EU and from outside. Those from outside would have to be delt with by tightening the rules, ie chain immigration. To the extent it is eU related getting rid ofthe Human rights act will help.

The level will stop by restrictions and quotas for labour needed, the 150k is year on year. The remainers haven't commented yet on the estimates of 12 million turks wanting to come to the UK.

movement of goods and services is not linked to people, we had a massive empire with free trade and emmigration!

If the aging population is a problem then low birthrates are the cause, thats the problem that needs to be delt with. Alsoreturn to the extended family etc, there are solutions and close to 2 million unemployed to help.

Finally, the economics of it and I do recognise that economic projections are very difficult to get right. However, most economists seem to believe that we are better off in and although there are odd ones that support the leave campaign just like there are a few scientists that deny global warming! However, for me I feel the majority view should hold sway. One thing is clear that if we did leave the uncertainty would have an impact maybe not a recession but our prosperity would grow more slowly. Markets also hate uncertainty so this is likely to negatively impact on the currency, stocks, shares and the cost of borrowing!

.

Thats not what the survey says. It says most ecomists beleive there will be a negative inpact on growth of GDP in the first 5 years. It is possible to believe this and still be in favour of leaving.Impacts would mainly tied to risks about uncertainty, possible instability..

Remember this was a survey bythe Guardian who have spun the results to suit there agenda. There is also a self selection bias in tha tits the respondents to a survey sent. What percentage would be academic economists compare to business is another big question.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If we leave, think of all the difficulties of getting players like Jiri, Uwe, Bruno & Calde.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If we leave, think of all the difficulties of getting players like Jiri, Uwe, Bruno & Calde.

Plenty of South American players in the UK, Spain, Italy and other countries.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Plenty of South American players in the UK, Spain, Italy and other countries.

They get Spanish or Italian passports thus making them EU citizens. Ulloa had to play in Spain for 2 years before qualifying.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

They get Spanish or Italian passports thus making them EU citizens. Ulloa had to play in Spain for 2 years before qualifying.

I didn't know that, how does it work in the US? Players that have left here seem to get in quite easily, we would have the same model as them.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I didn't know that, how does it work in the US? Players that have left here seem to get in quite easily, we would have the same model as them.

I don't know the details, but would imagine British players have to get a green card, or get a non immigrant visa, along with other temporary residents.

 

[Caveman]

This poll, when tallied up, shows 'leave' is winning...

I still think for the long run this will be better, we are run by people we didn't elect and we're also set to have less control if we stay. Yes we might go into a recession immediately...and we've just been through two and came out of them. Yes there will be some that will lose, but others will gain., that happens with any change.

Long term I'm convinced we're better out.

 

[cunning fergus]

... and, more to the point ... playing around with average numbers (whether these represent earnings or the average funded needs of all individuals in society) ignores the fact that different people have different levels of need.

We're in danger of deluding ourselves that there are simple mathematical "facts" out there that will win the argument.

Need should not dominate underlying reality which is simply affordability.

Until the UK earns more than it pays out, paying out on the different needs of individuals is a luxury we can't afford.

That said, those higher minded people could always pay more tax or forgo their inheritance. That would definitely win these types of argument?

 

[gregbrighton]

This poll, when tallied up, shows 'leave' is winning...

I still think for the long run this will be better, we are run by people we didn't elect and we're also set to have less control if we stay. Yes we might go into a recession immediately...and we've just been through two and came out of them. Yes there will be some that will lose, but others will gain., that happens with any change.

Long term I'm convinced we're better out.

Yeh, but this country is being destroyed by our own government that we did elect! So it's heads: they win, tails: we the people, lose! Not much of a bloody choice, is it?