[Politics] How long can Johnson survive as PM?

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Labour's 'red wall' that voted for Brexit, and voted for the Tories to make sure it happened will remain deeply suspicious of Labour as long as it resolutely refuses to commit itself to remaining outside the EU. As long as there is talk of a centre left coalition - with a party whose stated aim is to overturn the result of the referendum and attempt to negotiate a re-entry to the EU - the red wall ain't coming back home.
Smear camaign by the demonic right wing press to scare people against voting Labour? They won't even have a job to do!

Time for you to wake up and stop all this nonsense. Labour will very certainly not revisit Brexit (to my personal disappointment). You are doing the equivilent of invoking the 'baa baa black sheep' smear. Stop it now, please

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/keir-starmer-brexit/
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...-out-uk-rejoining-european-union-b982474.html
https://www.export.org.uk/news/5956...rasp-opportunities-of-life-outside-the-EU.htm

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why don’t they wait till after the 2 votes in a couple of weeks.

I have no idea. Just reporting what I have read.

 

[usernamed]

Labour's 'red wall' that voted for Brexit, and voted for the Tories to make sure it happened will remain deeply suspicious of Labour as long as it resolutely refuses to commit itself to remaining outside the EU. As long as there is talk of a centre left coalition - with a party whose stated aim is to overturn the result of the referendum and attempt to negotiate a re-entry to the EU - the red wall ain't coming back home.
Smear camaign by the demonic right wing press to scare people against voting Labour? They won't even have a job to do!

Nobody is talking about rejoining the EU.

However, even the sensible Conservatives are saying that Single Market membership makes economic and political sense. Politically, it removes the difficulties around the Good Friday agreement, and economically, it allows British companies to trade with their European markets with minimum fuss and paperwork.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tobias-ellwood-eu-single-market/

Such prominent lefties as Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill were 100% in favour of the single market. It was the ever closer political union that they objected to.

What makes me laugh is that the Conservative Party had it within their power to deliver everything Maggie had ever wanted, single market membership without full membership of the wider EU, and in a fit of infighting over who had power in the Conservative Party, they dropped the ball and inflicted this act of economic self-harm on the entire country.

I’m sure I’m not speaking purely for myself when I say how terribly impressed we all are.

 

[GT49er]

Time for you to wake up and stop all this nonsense. Labour will very certainly not revisit Brexit (to my personal disappointment). You are doing the equivilent of invoking the 'baa baa black sheep' smear. Stop it now, please

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/keir-starmer-brexit/
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...-out-uk-rejoining-european-union-b982474.html
https://www.export.org.uk/news/5956...rasp-opportunities-of-life-outside-the-EU.htm

That is good to see, but not as widely publicised as perhaps it should be. There are still flies in the ointment for Labour, however - firstly, Starmer's stance is far from popular within his own party - and a Lib-Lab coalition would likely blow that out of the window; it would be a Liberal non-negotiable condition of taking part.
Starmer is right, of course, that re-joining the EU would be an entirely different kettle of fish than just remaining would have been - although there is little doubt that a remain vote in the referendum would have given the green light to the EU to push for further integration and fewer opt-outs anyway.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I would.

But he won't be. The Tories will get rid of him as they do with lame ducks.

Unlike Thatcher he does not look or sound like a lame duck. Already an MP who voted against him yesterday has announced that it is time to move on, and that Johnson 'won the vote'.

I don't see there being any chance whasoever of his leaving before the general election. And at present there is no sign whatsoever that labour will win a working majority.

All the while that people who I assumed were at least half-awake have a complete misunderstanding of the current labour infrastructure, or even silly little things like labour's policy on Brexit, there will contine to be a sense among possible floating voters that there is no 'credible alternative' to Johnson.

**** me, the pathetic stupidity of people to fall for all this shite. Johnson says a lie and they automatically believe it is the truth. Starmer speaks and they refuse to listen.

As always, the public gets the leaders they deserve. If enough of the public remain in thrall to all this NewSpeak, Johnson is home and hosed. Another ten glorious years:

We have the strongest economy in Europe
We had the lowest Covid death rate in Europe thanks to the Johnson vaccine rollout
We pay the lowest tax in Europe
We have the highest employment rate in Europe
We have the least red tape in Europe, thanks to Brexit

(Many of you will have read the above list, nodding in agreement. Wake up! I had heard recently from a tory spokesperson that we have the highest employment rate in Europe. Turns out we are 7th https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/employment-rate?continent=europe. Another lie? Fancy that!)

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The LibDems are tabling a motion of No Confidence in the Commons. I wonder if the 148 will vote against him?

1 or 2 might. 140+ will vote for the Government

 

[GT49er]

Such prominent lefties as Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill were 100% in favour of the single market. It was the ever closer political union that they objected to.

Absolutely. I suspect that was the view of many Brexit voters too.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That is good to see, but not as widely publicised as perhaps it should be. There are still flies in the ointment for Labour, however - firstly, Starmer's stance is far from popular within his own party - and a Lib-Lab coalition would likely blow that out of the window; it would be a Liberal non-negotiable condition of taking part.
Starmer is right, of course, that re-joining the EU would be an entirely different kettle of fish than just remaining would have been - although there is little doubt that a remain vote in the referendum would have given the green light to the EU to push for further integration and fewer opt-outs anyway.

Well, it is perfectly widely publicised, but people (as you show) simply automatically assume the opposite.

It disappoints me how you have gone from asserting that labour want to rejoin the EU to, seconds later, stating that Starmer's position as leader (which you didn't know about 5 minutes ago) is 'far from popular within his own party'. How on earth would you know? I am in the party and haven't heard a peep of opposition.

As far as opposition to Starmer in labour is concerned, my awareness is there is less clamour to rejoin theEU than there is even among fringes of the Conservatives. Don't forget, the labour left (which includes a large proportion of constituency activists) are euroskeptic. Corbyn was euroskeptic.

It never ceases to amaze me how people acquire funny ideas.

I guess that if people are determined to find a stick with which to beat labour, they will find one. Even if they are unaware they are doing so. Beware you unconsious bias against labour!

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Nobody is talking about rejoining the EU.

However, even the sensible Conservatives are saying that Single Market membership makes economic and political sense. Politically, it removes the difficulties around the Good Friday agreement, and economically, it allows British companies to trade with their European markets with minimum fuss and paperwork.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tobias-ellwood-eu-single-market/

Such prominent lefties as Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill were 100% in favour of the single market. It was the ever closer political union that they objected to.

What makes me laugh is that the Conservative Party had it within their power to deliver everything Maggie had ever wanted, single market membership without full membership of the wider EU, and in a fit of infighting over who had power in the Conservative Party, they dropped the ball and inflicted this act of economic self-harm on the entire country.

I’m sure I’m not speaking purely for myself when I say how terribly impressed we all are.

Too right.

Joining the EEA/Single Market would be absolutely awesome. Joining the EU, not so much.

People need to get beyond the "rule takers" Big Lie, though, to realise this.

 

[e77]

Well, it is perfectly widely publicised, but people (as you show) simply automatically assume the opposite.

It disappoints me how you have gone from asserting that labour want to rejoin the EU to, seconds later, stating that Starmer's position as leader (which you didn't know about 5 minutes ago) is 'far from popular within his own party'. How on earth would you know? I am in the party and haven't heard a peep of opposition.

As far as opposition to Starmer in labour is concerned, my awareness is there is less clamour to rejoin theEU than there is even among fringes of the Conservatives. Don't forget, the labour left (which includes a large proportion of constituency activists) are euroskeptic. Corbyn was euroskeptic.

It never ceases to amaze me how people acquire funny ideas.

I guess that if people are determined to find a stick with which to beat labour, they will find one. Even if they are unaware they are doing so. Beware you unconsious bias against labour!

The left of the Labour Party have returned to their normal position, briefly interrupted when some MPs neglected their role as gatekeepers and decided the 2015 leadership contest needed to be broadened out and nominated Corbyn, of criticising the leader and plotting without the numbers to actually do anything about it.

 

[beorhthelm]

(Many of you will have read the above list, nodding in agreement. Wake up! I had heard recently from a tory spokesperson that we have the highest employment rate in Europe. Turns out we are 7th https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/employment-rate?continent=europe. Another lie? Fancy that!)

Greece 87.43 employed? politicans love to misuse employment stats, with extra fun from differences between what unemployment and employed mean in each country, let alone between countries.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The left of the Labour Party have returned to their normal position, briefly interrupted when some MPs neglected their role as gatekeepers and decided the 2015 leadership contest needed to be broadened out and nominated Corbyn, of criticising the leader and plotting without the numbers to actually do anything about it.

Precisely. The 'broad church' led by those who understand the art of the possible.

Some people may be unaware but 'clause 4', which defined a key part of the labour constitution, committed the party to public 'ownership' of, er, everything.

"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

In other words, communism. It never influenced what the leadership sought to do, however. Blair changed clause 4, which was highly symbolic, signaling what most of us suspected all along, that the vision of the Webb's was never seriously in the plan.

Here is the new clause 4:

"The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect."

When Blair got that change, I did something I had never done up to then in my life. I joined a political party (Labour).

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Nobody is talking about rejoining the EU.

However, even the sensible Conservatives are saying that Single Market membership makes economic and political sense. Politically, it removes the difficulties around the Good Friday agreement, and economically, it allows British companies to trade with their European markets with minimum fuss and paperwork.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tobias-ellwood-eu-single-market/

Such prominent lefties as Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill were 100% in favour of the single market. It was the ever closer political union that they objected to.

So you'd have no objection to joining the Single Market again especially as it was introduced to Europe by Margaret Thatcher?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Greece 87.43 employed? politicans love to misuse employment stats, with extra fun from differences between what unemployment and employed mean in each country, let alone between countries.

I know. I laughed at that. But my point was that the tories lied about this issue (and others) and people simply accepted the lie. And now we have Johnson and his overwhelming victory and clear mandate, after 148 of his own MPs voted to have him replaced. Yes, politicians play with the facts, but what we are seeing now is a debasement of politics.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Too right.

Joining the EEA/Single Market would be absolutely awesome. Joining the EU, not so much.

People need to get beyond the "rule takers" Big Lie, though, to realise this.

We will never join the single market under Johnson. He would have all the euronutters like Bone and Mogg all over him. He swore an oath that we would never......oh, hang on......single market it is, then. By Christmas, you say?

 

[nicko31]

Time for you to wake up and stop all this nonsense. Labour will very certainly not revisit Brexit (to my personal disappointment). You are doing the equivilent of invoking the 'baa baa black sheep' smear. Stop it now, please

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/keir-starmer-brexit/
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...-out-uk-rejoining-european-union-b982474.html
https://www.export.org.uk/news/5956...rasp-opportunities-of-life-outside-the-EU.htm

Indeed Starmer never mentions the B-word. But he should because "B....isn't working". We do need a more sensible relationship, our trade is being destroyed along with our tax base.

No tax base and we can waive goodbye to functioning public services and all the nice things like decent health and social care

 

[Bold Seagull]

The No Confidence vote was worse than Theresa May's in 2018 and she was gone within 7 months. Apparently the 1922 committee can allow another vote within 12 months but don't usually.

Now they've revealed there are 148 of them, the 1922 committee is effectively redundant if they want to topple their leader. The government has the prospect of a sizeable and what will now be an organised rebellion that can stop it in it's tracks. It's the '148_GETRID' whatsapp group that BJ needs to worry about.

This has to be the best outcome for the opposition parties. They have to crow that he should go, but that's the last thing they must actually want. Forced into a corner and with his own vanity preventing a resignation, a snap GE is a real prospect because as an arrogant self absorbed man, he'll do what's best for Boris Johnson, even if it means the ship and all it's crew go down with him.

 

[usernamed]

So you'd have no objection to joining the Single Market again especially as it was introduced to Europe by Margaret Thatcher?

I would prefer us to be in the single market. It lets our exporters export, giving us unfettered access to the markets geographically closest to us, and removes the political difficulties around the Good Friday Agreement.

Not especially because of Thatcher though. I’m not a fan of most Thatcher policies (e.g. the fine detail around Right to Buy is directly responsible for the current housing crisis in my view) but in the single market, Thatcher and Cockfield did a decent job.

I’m not entirely tribally aligned to a political party, I’m fairly centrist. I try to judge the policies and leadership on a case by case basis at each election, but to get vaguely back on topic, I blame the Conservative and Labour Party machines equally for ever forcing us to choose between Corbyn and Johnson.

The difference to me is that Corbyn sincerely believed, whereas Johnson is the figurehead for something so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate, that he should have been headed off by any competent gatekeeper before he got anywhere near the controls. To my mind, the Conservative Party now is undergoing the same kind of revolution that the Republican Party in the US has undergone, and the sane/moderate voices are being ostracised or drowned out.

Unfortunately the only message that is getting through to the core Conservative vote is that “if we don’t hold our noses and go along with it, we’ll let in the lefties.” The idea that they could actually try running as a party with aspirational ideas genuinely working for the good of Britain doesn’t seem to cross the current lot’s mind.

Until the core Conservative vote are willing to examine what they’re putting into power, I fear more of the same, and it always takes longer to rebuild something than it does to destroy it.

TLDR; I’m pro single market, but not coz of Thatcher.

 

[nicko31]

Great timeline job on Johnson from Led by Donkeys

He hates the working class

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1533765420427186179

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I would prefer us to be in the single market. It lets our exporters export, giving us unfettered access to the markets geographically closest to us, and removes the political difficulties around the Good Friday Agreement.

Not especially because of Thatcher though. I’m not a fan of most Thatcher policies (e.g. the fine detail around Right to Buy is directly responsible for the current housing crisis in my view) but in the single market, Thatcher and Cockfield did a decent job.

I’m not entirely tribally aligned to a political party, I’m fairly centrist. I try to judge the policies and leadership on a case by case basis at each election, but to get vaguely back on topic, I blame the Conservative and Labour Party machines equally for ever forcing us to choose between Corbyn and Johnson.

The difference to me is that Corbyn sincerely believed, whereas Johnson is the figurehead for something so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate, that he should have been headed off by any competent gatekeeper before he got anywhere near the controls. To my mind, the Conservative Party now is undergoing the same kind of revolution that the Republican Party in the US has undergone, and the sane/moderate voices are being ostracised or drowned out.

Unfortunately the only message that is getting through to the core Conservative vote is that “if we don’t hold our noses and go along with it, we’ll let in the lefties.” The idea that they could actually try running as a party with aspirational ideas genuinely working for the good of Britain doesn’t seem to cross the current lot’s mind.

Until the core Conservative vote are willing to examine what they’re putting into power, I fear more of the same, and it always takes longer to rebuild something than it does to destroy it.

TLDR; I’m pro single market, but not coz of Thatcher.

I agree with all of that. I, too, am a centrist.