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Home Ownership



Lammy

Registered Abuser
Oct 1, 2003
7,581
Newhaven/Lewes/Atlanta
dwayne said:
This article is US-centric but very interesting

Forget what your friends say. Owning a home is hardly the best way to save for retirement. How do we know? We ran the numbers.
MOST PEOPLE THINK of their home as a blue-chip growth investment — especially in times like these, after the stock market has come through a long decline.

The truth is, it's more like the most expensive mutual fund you can imagine: Not only does it have a front load consisting of closing costs, moving expenses and other charges, but it exacts high management expenses each year, in the form of maintenance and property taxes. Then, on top of all that, most people get charged a 6% back-end load for the broker's fee when they sell.

Do the benefits of leverage and tax breaks outweigh the "loads"? Sometimes. But not by as much as you'd think. For most of us, building wealth with our residence is a slow and inefficient process — if it works at all. It's especially hard in this era of low inflation simply because the underlying asset, your home, typically doesn't appreciate very quickly. Compared with average share prices or even bond returns, house prices plod upward at a very slow rate: since 1979, about 4.4% a year. If you can't do better than that in the stock market, you need to fire your broker.

Real estate enthusiasts will point out, correctly, that you can leverage your purchase of a home — that is, realize a profit on the total value of a house with only a small down payment. When you combine that with incredibly generous tax breaks, an inherently tepid asset becomes a better wealth-building tool. But there are other costs that offset those advantages. For one thing, the house you live in has a much higher carrying cost than your other investments. Not only do you pay mortgage interest and insurance premiums, but you often get hammered with significant property taxes. And don't forget maintenance. That's easy to ignore — especially in years when you don't have to paint, fix the roof or replace the boiler. These add up, especially over the long term.


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The right way to treat your house is as an expense — one that, if you're lucky, will pay you a rebate when you're done with it.

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In order to quantify just how good an investment the typical house is, we built a model that takes each payment you make on your house and calculates what would have happened if you had instead invested that payment in a hypothetical investment that returns a fixed rate each year and is subject to the 20% capital gains tax.

The average American home has appreciated somewhere between 3 and 6% a year during the past 20 years, depending on which time period you look at. Let's say you buy a house for $250,000 and get the high end of that range: 6%. That means you will be able to sell it for almost $376,000 after seven years, the average time active buyers and sellers own their homes, according to the National Association of Realtors. Nice gain, right?

But what did it cost you? Let's say you put down 20% to avoid having to buy mortgage insurance. You should expect to pay $800 to $1,000 or 2% of the house's value, whichever is higher, in closing costs. Let's say you get lucky and end up paying only 1.5%. Assuming you're equally lucky and pay slightly less than the averages across the board, you'll end up with a 7% mortgage, property taxes of about 1.5%, annual repair costs of about 1% of the purchase price, tax and repair inflation that rises slower than the overall consumer price index, 1% initial furnishing expenses and annual insurance premiums of about 0.3% — and your income-tax break will be figured at a 32% combined federal and state rate.

After selling the house, you'd have to fork over $22,554 to the broker and $182,295 to satisfy the outstanding mortgage principal, leaving you with $171,058. Your total payments over the seven years would have amounted to $167,011 (including the tax givebacks), leaving you with $4,047 to add to your wealth — the equivalent of a 1.1% annual return. If you hold the house for 12 years — the NAR's best guess at the average homeownership period for the whole population — your selling price would rise to $503,049. Your share of that goes up to $309,702 because you have less mortgage principal to pay back. Of course, your total payments rise as well, to $249,247, but the final proceeds of $60,456 represent the equivalent of a taxable investment with a 3.7% annualized gain. Let's say the house appreciation rate drops, to 4.5%. Now the proceeds fall short of your total 12 years of expenses by $13,878. For seven years of ownership, you would find yourself out $29,503.

Hot markets perform better, right? Surely you can do better in the San Francisco Bay Area, San Diego or Westchester County, N.Y.? In fact, if you have a very high appreciation rate, the leveraging advantage really does kick in. Take the same $250,000 house with 9.2% annual appreciation — the highest rate for a major metro area over the past 10 years. In that case, your equivalent annualized return rate would be 11.2%. Not bad. Of course, you can't make the case for investing your retirement savings in a house by cherry-picking only the best markets for proof. For one thing, most of us don't have the option of living in the hot markets. For another, they seldom stay hot for more than a decade at a time. The tech wreck is already killing housing prices in the Bay Area.

The fact is, when it comes to outsize returns, equities win walking away. In one of the worst 12 months in recent Wall Street history, 16 of the 80 stock sectors we track here at SmartMoney still had gains of 30% or more.

Once you stop looking at your house as an investment, it's easy to see the real advantages of homeowning. Take the case cited above, where you are out $29,503 for living in a house seven years. Could you have rented the same living space for what amounts to a little more than $350 a month? We doubt it.

In other words, you should treat your house as an expense — one that, if you're lucky, will pay you a rebate when you're done with it. That's what it really is. A home is your "best investment" only metaphorically — if it helps you achieve a more comfortable life. If you do it right, your house purchase will free up much more of your income — now and in the future — to fund some truly outstanding investments.



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Can someone give me the gist. I can't be f***ing arsed to read all THAT!
 




dwayne

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
16,265
London
Lammy said:
Can someone give me the gist. I can't be f***ing arsed to read all THAT!

Houses are a rubbish "investment" and should be looked upon as an expense that is necessary (eg you need somewhere to live)...focus on other investments if you want to make money.
 


Albion Dan

Banned
Jul 8, 2003
11,125
Peckham
tinx said:
, now she's not working as she is at home looking after our son I have to fork out around 1500 a month on morgage bills council tax etc which means we are forever skint and this is ....

My girlfriend is about to stop work to have our first and I have to say Im not looking forward to living on the monthly budget well be on as a family on one income compared to the amount im used to spending on myself. £1200 a month just on the mortgage, GULP!
 


eastlondonseagull

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2004
13,385
West Yorkshire
Barnet Seagull said:
You'd be far better off saving towards your pension.

My house is hopefully going to be my pension. I'm 33, have never had a pension (my fault, wish I could've afforded it back in the day) and now think house-buying is probably a better investment than a pension atm.
 






Albion Rob

New member
I think some of the sentiments expressed here about credit cards are pretty much on the button but it has to be said it's symptomatic of society.

All day every day it's rammed down people's throats how we all need this great car or this jazzy phone or this expensive piece of jewellery. Now, in the past, ie before TV, it would be rare to see someone of such opulent wealth. Nowadays you can watch Cribs or any number of celeb shows and see people with more money than they know what to do with.

I suppose it links into all walks of life - crime, both acquisitive crime and anti social behaviour - and to a larger degree, debt. It's a case of Why should they have that and I don't?

Personally, I have never had a credit card. Had to take out a small bank loan to cover a post-grad course but apart from that it's just my student loan.

I honestly don't know what I would do if I was up to my eyeballs in credit and store cards and loans where my monthly payments were more than I was taking home.

What chance do people have?
 


Uncle C

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2004
11,711
Bishops Stortford
eastlondonseagull said:
My house is hopefully going to be my pension. I'm 33, have never had a pension (my fault, wish I could've afforded it back in the day) and now think house-buying is probably a better investment than a pension atm.

And where you gonna live when you sell this house on retirement?
 


E

enigma

Guest
dwayne said:
Houses are a rubbish "investment" and should be looked upon as an expense that is necessary (eg you need somewhere to live)...focus on other investments if you want to make money.

Totally agree with you. f*** all this "giving money to landlords" bollocks that all the idiots that buy houses asap spout.
 




Hunting 784561

New member
Jul 8, 2003
3,651
Uncle C said:
And where you gonna live when you sell this house on retirement?

The only way this would work is by downsizing, ie, buying a cheaper house or moving to a cheaper area.

If for example you sold your house for £500k , and bought a smaller or cheaper one for £250k, the £ 250k profit invested would return you approx £12,500 pa. Not very much maybe, but you could start to use the capital sum if needed.

The other advantage of using property as a pension, rather than a pension policy itself, is that when you die, your partner inherits the capital asset, but many pensions stop when one or both partners die, with the pension company (of all people) keeping your hard earned money.
 
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acrossthepond

Active member
Jan 30, 2006
1,233
Ruritania
Smart Mart said:
The only way this would work is by downsizing, ie, buying a cheaper house or moving to a cheaper area.

If for example you sold your house for £500k , and bought a smaller or cheaper one for £250k, the £ 250k profit invested would return you approx £12,500 pa. Not very much maybe, but you could start to use the capital sum if needed.

The other advantage of using property as a pension, rather than a pension policy itself, is that when you die, your partner inherits the capital asset, but many pensions stop when one or both partners die, with the pension company (of all people) keeping your hard earned money.

I have a mate who works at Deutsche Bank who has adopted this approach. He has bought his house for his family (him, wife, 4 kids) on interest only with a 30 year term in the full knowledge that he will have to downsize at the end of the term. his argument is that houses have always appreciated over the long-term (30 years) and he won't need the space when his crew have left home. He banks on getting enough extra out at the end of the term to be able to afford a good, but smaller, place.

His response to the argument about what happens if the market does not behave as he anticipates over 30 years is that if that happens, we're all screwed anyway.

In the meantime, his house is more affordable (which is a relative term, he's minted) but he maintains that it should work for most people.

I can't decide if he's working the system, or setting himself up for a big fall....
 




Muzzman

Pocket Rocket
Jul 8, 2003
5,453
Here and There
Lord Bracknell said:
The threads about Margaret Thatcher have got me thinking about what I think is one of the most devastating legacies of her period in power - the disappearance of affordable housing.

I know it was a long time ago, but when I first got into home ownership, it was a three bedroomed house at a price that could be fully funded from a mortgage of three times a teacher's salary and no inheritance from any dead relatives. I was in my twenties.

How about today? How are people in their twenties getting into home ownership? If at all?

This is very much a real issue for me.. I'm 27 and have rented for the past 8 years. I moved back to my Mum's about two years ago.. I now refuse to rent.. and am trying to save up for a diposit for a mortgage.. although I will have no chance as I am single and employed, in a good job and paying my taxes... I don't have any children either.

Therefore my income is quite high and my expenditure is near-on nothing.. but is that taken into consideration.. is it BOLLOCKS!..

To save up 20k to lay on a property is nonesense.. unless you have rich parents which I don't.
 




Hunting 784561

New member
Jul 8, 2003
3,651
acrossthepond said:
I have a mate who works at Deutsche Bank who has adopted this approach. He has bought his house for his family (him, wife, 4 kids) on interest only with a 30 year term in the full knowledge that he will have to downsize at the end of the term. his argument is that houses have always appreciated over the long-term (30 years) and he won't need the space when his crew have left home. He banks on getting enough extra out at the end of the term to be able to afford a good, but smaller, place.

His response to the argument about what happens if the market does not behave as he anticipates over 30 years is that if that happens, we're all screwed anyway.

In the meantime, his house is more affordable (which is a relative term, he's minted) but he maintains that it should work for most people.

I can't decide if he's working the system, or setting himself up for a big fall....

I think real estate is a one way bet in the long term, as long as you have enough liquidity to ride out any short term troughs that come along. So your mate will be OK - as long as he downsizes at the right time, and on his own terms.

The other option on the £500k scenario is to sell up, buy 2 properties at £250k, which means you can live in one, and the other will provide rental income for you.

It beats working for a living.

PS - what is your work in NYC ??
 
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Shropshire Seagull

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2004
8,788
Telford
34064 Fighter Command said:
But there is no guarentee that these properties will provide them with an income if they can't find people to rent them. Whereas a pension is usualy based upon a much broader range of investment which will include property as well as stocks & shares.

There is also the cost to a landlord of paying for the properties upkeep, council tax etc, regardless of wether the property is let or not. I'd rather keep my assets ' liquid ' rather than tie up my future income in bricks & mortar.

To many "errors" in this to pass up.

With ftb finding purchase unaffordable (finding the deposit is the real problem) there is always a queue of tenents waiting to rent (I've never had one of my portfolio empty for less than 6 weeks ever)

True, pensions are on a broader range of investment, but you only have to look at the ups and downs of the FTSE to see that this is a constantly fluctuating market (more so than housing)

Property is "liquid" if you can wait 3 months to get your hands on your investment (90 days is typical conveyancing period)

Landlords don't pay council tax if its unfurnished.

You are missing one of the greatest advantages of the property investment - ROI = return on investment (I'e posted this before but here it comes again)
Buy a property for £150k, deposit of 20% is £30k (your investment) - if property goes up 5% in year one, its now worth +£7.5k - against your £30k investment, this is the same as 25% growth and there aint many investments that will earn you that - its called leveraged investment. More please ....
 


Redhead

New member
Jul 21, 2005
2,946
The Mighty 'ford
seagullion said:
too many pikeys :nono:

Common misconception, Hailsham's house's are cheaper than most of Sussex due to no Railway Station, but you get more house for your money, just avoid town farm and the diplocks. Still yet to meet an actual pikey, but met a few Palace fans.
 




Shropshire Seagull

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2004
8,788
Telford
brunswick said:
i got 20k stashed, good job and still wont get on the property ladder as I feel £170k for a house and utility bills is just too much.

I prefer to rent a room in lovely shared house for 400 no bills and enjoy life.

mortgage = 800 pm
gas/elec/water/ctax = 250 pm
maintenance/improvements = 100 pm

feck that.

but what are you going to leave your kids i keep hearing? knowlege and wisdom :)

Never mind kids - what the feck are you gonna do when the day comes that you want to give up work (retirement) ???
If you've paid off your mortgage, you will have a rent-free roof over your head till the day you die - if you spent all your life renting, you'll have to rent through your retirement too - how the feck are you gonna pay that on your pension ???

Daft or what!
 


A couple of points, Thatcher knew exactly with what she was doing, please refer to her speeches b4 the 1979 election and afterwards.

She had been advised by the Smith Think tank and others on the effects of right to buy and for providing the conditions for the "speculator" housing market. Also remember economic advisors were telling her Govt in the 80's to slow down the housing market, this was againgst the govt ethos. Boom and bust folllowed.

The present Govt thru the Housing Corporation is putting a great deal of money into Housing association developments, turning brown field sites ready for inner city housing, providing financial help to key workers, and undertaking the biggest ever Housing Improvemnet Programme.

No its not doing enough, to really lower housing prices, supply must exceed demand. The market won't do this. Only the Govt interference can change things. But to make this initiative effective the "Right to Buy" legislation will have to be repealed.

Solutions are needed, how do the low pay in my area, get onto the housing market. As I said earlier the average household income is £12,000 and average house price in Hackney must be well over £300,000.

lc
 
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