Hit the poorest the hardest - is this really what people voted for?

[bhaexpress]

Unfortunatley, I think you will find that on a national basis, the problem is much bigger than the "small minority" you talk about. There are large parts of our older, more industrial cities than Brighton, and industrial towns, where the culture is now based upon scrounging from our state, and there is very little interest in getting work. Naturally, genuine people who have "paid their dues" for years, and are now experiencing problems through no fault of their own, should be helped as much as is possible.

And you know this for a fact do you ? Of course you don't. I just hope for your sake you can stay smugly in you nice, safe, comfortable job. Mind you a trip to the Job Centre might be an education.

 

[pork pie]

Sorry I'm really struggling to see how you deduced all that from one sentence referring to the Tories (David Cameron is their leader, by the way, the Prime Minister) annoucements this morning on their own higher education plans. You ask why I would be worried about the education system. Anyone who isn't worried about it is the idiot, you seem to have a very self-centred view of the issue.

Despite your bizarre rant you clearly have no idea what I think about the education system. Happily, I have posted very consistently on it for years on here, I doubt you have. Maybe it just suddenly got more important for you.

For what its worth, I think Labour's policy of pushing more and more students into university has largely been a failure, and have said so many times. And I have also said if you have potential skills as say, a very good carpenter/plumber etc, you would earn a lot more money by doing that training then being persuaded to do a media studies degree and end up being a tea-boy in a production company somewhere. And I have also said that lecturers are best placed to see the level of students coming through, and judge the relative standard of degrees being taught. And they are not impressed. Perhaps you could have ascertained what I actually thought, before inventing a load of reactionary bollocks.

Ok, maybe I have overreacted to your comments. I am sorry, but there are so many idiots posting on this thread as though nothing needs to be cut.

However, they appear to be very left wing and imply that money should be wasted on education and that DC is only interested in looking after his mates. I really doubt that is fair. Unfortunately, DC looks to have very "wet" liberal views, and I doubt that he has the balls to call it as you and I are both suggesting. The result of which is likely to be that truely gifted students will be saddled with even more debt when they graduate, and the students who are not academically gifted will continue to waste their time and money on inappropriate degree courses.

 

[sten_super]

Keep up, thickies at the back. There has been a Queen's Speech, and policy announcements are being made every day.

Please point me to the policy announcement that said 'I would rather destroy most of the country's safety nets, and the education system, rather than risk upsetting my millionaire mates'.

Oh wait that's right, you can't, because he hasn't and you are making it up.

In the same way that cuts in spending are not necessarily a pariah in terms of reducing government debt, because they reduce incomes and therefore spending and ultimately VAT/income tax receipts, increasing taxation is not a pariah because it will inevitably mean that some people/money leave the economy, either by physically leaving the country or by doing more work 'off-the-books' or undertaking more tax evasion.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Ok, maybe I have overreacted to your comments. I am sorry, but there are so many idiots posting on this thread as though nothing needs to be cut.

However, they appear to be very left wing and imply that money should be wasted on education and that DC is only interested in looking after his mates. I really doubt that is fair. Unfortunately, DC looks to have very "wet" liberal views, and I doubt that he has the balls to call it as you and I are both suggesting. The result of which is likely to be that truely gifted students will be saddled with even more debt when they graduate, and the students who are not academically gifted will continue to waste their time and money on inappropriate degree courses.

Fair enough. I am also concerned about those things. As I am about the spectre of a totally two-tier university system raised today, where if you have the money you send your kid to, say, Bristol, for a traditional course, if you don't, you get taught at a local FE college according to a syllabus and it just says 'Bristol' on your certificate.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Please point me to the policy announcement that said 'I would rather destroy most of the country's safety nets, and the education system, rather than risk upsetting my millionaire mates'.

Oh wait that's right, you can't, because he hasn't and you are making it up.

.

It's almost touchingly naive. Do you think Adebayor loved Arsenal, as well? Believe everything Harry Redknapp says?

 

[sten_super]

It's almost touchingly naive. Do you think Adebayor loved Arsenal, as well?

Stop being a condescending twat. You aren't answering my questions because you can't. Rather than relying on any news stories, or actual facts, you are preferring to live in your nice little bubble where the evil Tories are setting out to ruin us all and install a Russian oligarch as emperor as long as he pays for their political adverts for the rest of his life, and the poor put-upon Labour government, who have never done any wrong, are being cruelly derided by the media when in fact it was all Thatcher's fault.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Sorry, I wasn't aware you'd actually asked a question. What was it? Was it the one about if Father Christmas exists?

 

[pork pie]

And you know this for a fact do you ? Of course you don't. I just hope for your sake you can stay smugly in you nice, safe, comfortable job. Mind you a trip to the Job Centre might be an education.

You asked in another post how I could judge you on your post. Clearly the same applies to you and mine. You are so wrong.

Yes, actually I do know about deprived areas as a fact. I do not live in the nice cosy south east, and both my wife and I have had the missfortune to have visited our local job centre. From personal experience I can compare it with one in Sussex. Where as there are some wasters in Sussex, but as you suggest, they are a very small minority and tended to be scousers or mancs, together with a very small number of home grown losers. Around here, there are a large number who turn up because they have to, and really are Wayne and Waynetta Slob who's only interest is getting their "soch" and pleading their case for ex-gracia payments to feed/clothe their scruffy kids etc. while fiddling with the latest top-end mobile phone and moaning about not being able to smoke whilst they are waiting.

 

[sten_super]

You said;

Keep up, thickies at the back. There has been a Queen's Speech, and policy announcements are being made every day.

Please point me to the policy announcement that said 'I would rather destroy most of the country's safety nets, and the education system, rather than risk upsetting my millionaire mates'.

Oh wait that's right, you can't, because he hasn't and you are making it up.

Am I right, or am I wrong? If I'm wrong, please point me in the direction of a policy announcement which you previously claimed had been made.

Apologies, I realise that dealing in actual facts must be difficult for you, but do your best.

edit to add: I did actually bother looking to see if they had made any concrete announcements on education. All I can find is the head of Universities UK saying that they want tuition fees to rise (surprise surprise) and the universities minister saying that the universities system had to change to provide better value for money (as all public services will have to). They are currently waiting on the results of the Browne review of tuition fees, due later in the summer.

 

[Tooting Gull]

You've got your set views, that's fine. And you believe everything word, for word in government press releases (although I doubt if you believed the Labour ones somehow....) Others don't, recognise there is such a thing as spin, read between the lines, look to the future, question what they are being told, and (shock) have their own opinions. It sounds like you'd be happier in China.

Did you believe everything that Comical Ali bloke said in Iraq?

 

[ROKERITE]

Unfortunatley, I think you will find that on a national basis, the problem is much bigger than the "small minority" you talk about. There are large parts of our older, more industrial cities than Brighton, and industrial towns, where the culture is now based upon scrounging from our state, and there is very little interest in getting work. Naturally, genuine people who have "paid their dues" for years, and are now experiencing problems through no fault of their own, should be helped as much as is possible.

Absolutely correct; just take a walk round the centre of my own dear home town. There is a hopeless acceptance of life lived off the state that has been ingrained over forty years. It is very hard to get a job in Sunderland, many decent people are desperate to gain employment, but for thousands there's no desire to find work. We have hundreds of families where no-one has worked for three generations, and this underclass is growing. It really shouldn't matter whether your politics are left or right, this an unsustainable situation; but I fear it won't be much better when this coalition comes to an end. More power to their elbows if they do try and take effective measures to do something about it. The ordinary hardworking man or woman holding down a low paid job is as keen as anyone to see the can work/won't work brigade given a rude awakening.

 

[sten_super]

You've got your set views, that's fine. And you believe everything word, for word in government press releases (although I doubt if you believed the Labour ones somehow....) Others don't, recognise there is such a thing as spin, read between the lines, look to the future, question what they are being told, and (shock) have their own opinions. It sounds like you'd be happier in China.

Did you believe everything that Comical Ali bloke said in Iraq?

Are you seriously accusing me of being the one stuck in my ways? I did not vote Tory, as I did not agree with their plans for the economy. However, I'm prepared to give them a chance though, as I did with the Labour government before them, without assuming stereotypical views and lambasting them before they have a chance to actually do something. Your hypocracy is breathtaking.

It is clear that the public finances need serious addressing. If you are so confident that what the Tories are doing is wrong, what would you do? Gosh, that's almost back on topic!

 

[bhaexpress]

Absolutely correct; just take a walk round the centre of my own dear home town. There is a hopeless acceptance of life lived off the state that has been ingrained over forty years. It is very hard to get a job in Sunderland, many decent people are desperate to gain employment, but for thousands there's no desire to find work. We have hundreds of families where no-one has worked for three generations, and this underclass is growing. It really shouldn't matter whether your politics are left or right, this an unsustainable situation; but I fear it won't be much better when this coalition comes to an end. More power to their elbows if they do try and take effective measures to do something about it. The ordinary hardworking man or woman holding down a low paid job is as keen as anyone to see the can work/won't work brigade given a rude awakening.

What are you trying to be ? The winner of the 'Wanker of the Year' award ? Tell you what I suggest you pass on your opinions to the next person you see that you think fits your stereotype, just as long as they're not breast feeding of course.

 

[London Calling]

So for every job in Hackney there are 20 official unemployed plus more people not signed on. And yet its adjecent to the continuing wealth of the City and a short commute to Canary Wharf, where the average salary is £100,000 a year and that includes all of the shop workers!!


So out of every 20unemployed one will take the job, 19 need to be shot, gassed, vilified, have there benefits withdrawn to be starved, that will bring the kids on the street to be beggars, only one step away from Dickens London. And we the 7th wealthiest nation in the world.

How could the Swedes, Danes and even Germany got it so wrong about a quality public services system.

 

[Tooting Gull]

For someone who says they didn't agree with the plans for the economy, that's some conversion you've had there. If I go and do something more interesting now, will that see you start squealing and bleating that it 'proves you're right'? Actually, I can live with that. Ta-ra.

 

[sten_super]

For someone who says they didn't agree with the plans for the economy, that's some conversion you've had there. If I go and do something more interesting now, will that see you start squealing and bleating that it 'proves you're right'? Actually, I can live with that. Ta-ra.

It's not about being right or wrong, we all have different opinions. What I do like on here is having some kind of debate though, and that, for some unknown reason, is what you've studiously avoided. I don't bear any malice towards you, it's only a messageboard at the end of the day, I just think it's a pity that we can't have some kind of adult discussion about these things.

Hey ho, I should probably get on with some work now rather than pissing about on here all day!

 

[Dave the OAP]

Are you seriously accusing me of being the one stuck in my ways? I did not vote Tory, as I did not agree with their plans for the economy. However, I'm prepared to give them a chance though, as I did with the Labour government before them, without assuming stereotypical views and lambasting them before they have a chance to actually do something. Your hypocracy is breathtaking.

It is clear that the public finances need serious addressing. If you are so confident that what the Tories are doing is wrong, what would you do? Gosh, that's almost back on topic!

Forgive me from being personal and by all means tell me to f*** off, but can i ask just exactly what you do for a job.

i assume by your standard of argument that you are a teacher/ lecturer in politics or something like that. Am I close?

 

[sten_super]

Forgive me from being personal and by all means tell me to f*** off, but can i ask just exactly what you do for a job.

i assume by your standard of argument that you are a teacher/ lecturer in politics or something like that. Am I close?

No problem. I'm an economist. So a fairly decent knowledge (I like to think, at least) of the potential implications of government policy on the economy.

I'm not sure whether the second paragraph is commending or criticising the standard of my argument!

 

[bhaexpress]

You asked in another post how I could judge you on your post. Clearly the same applies to you and mine. You are so wrong.

Yes, actually I do know about deprived areas as a fact. I do not live in the nice cosy south east, and both my wife and I have had the missfortune to have visited our local job centre. From personal experience I can compare it with one in Sussex. Where as there are some wasters in Sussex, but as you suggest, they are a very small minority and tended to be scousers or mancs, together with a very small number of home grown losers. Around here, there are a large number who turn up because they have to, and really are Wayne and Waynetta Slob who's only interest is getting their "soch" and pleading their case for ex-gracia payments to feed/clothe their scruffy kids etc. while fiddling with the latest top-end mobile phone and moaning about not being able to smoke whilst they are waiting.

How good of you to take the time off from your Daily Mail for that nice piece of judgemental bile. As has been said before by others the jobs just aren't there. The fact is that unless people make the effort to find work their benefit gets stopped. Also, there are a whole lot of people who would work but they would be worse off if they did. You think that somebody should take a low paid job AND still be worse off ? Would you ? And if you say yes you're a bigger fool than I thought.

 

[Dave the OAP]

No problem. I'm an economist. So a fairly decent knowledge (I like to think, at least) of the potential implications of government policy on the economy.

I'm not sure whether the second paragraph is commending or criticising the standard of my argument!

Not a critisism at all, I think your arguments are well put together and put forward, hence I thought you were a teacher/lecturer.

Where I think we differ is that I tend to see it from a different point of view due to my wife's job and feel that these "cuts" will inevitably hit the very people in society who are less able to shoulder the burden. Unfortunately, not everyone in society can afford expensive tax lawyers to avoid paying their fair share and in the same way, pork pies argument that everyone on benefit is a work shy scoundrel is disingenuous to the millions who cant work ( or are caught in the benefit trap")