History of Dene/Dean??

[Monsieur Leclerc]

A map at home suggests that Worthing was called 'Woortinge' back in 1610.

 

[Peter Grummit]

I am sure 'Dene' or 'Dean' is underground stream, and the dry valley it left behind. Hence Withdean, where the stream would have run down Valley Drive and then Tongdean Lane under the tunnel outside the ground. In Westdene, the road which runs under the railway is Dene Vale and both would have fed into the underground river which runs under London Road. The railway embankment is obviously of more recent construction!

PG (who grew up in Westdene).

 

[Barrel of Fun]

The Oxford Concise seems to think it refers to Vales/Narrow wooded valleys, which would make sense.


Dene n. (also dean) Brit. 1 a narrow wooded valley. 2 a vale (esp. as the ending of place names). [Old English denu, related to DEN]


BoF (Another one who grew up in Westdene/Tongdean)

 

[Seagull's Return]

I am sure 'Dene' or 'Dean' is underground stream, and the dry valley it left behind. Hence Withdean, where the stream would have run down Valley Drive and then Tongdean Lane under the tunnel outside the ground. In Westdene, the road which runs under the railway is Dene Vale and both would have fed into the underground river which runs under London Road. The railway embankment is obviously of more recent construction!

PG (who grew up in Westdene).

Again, I defer to superior knowledge - certainly seems to make sense.

On this subject, I do know that the dry valleys on the downs themselves don't originate in streams (at least not any which coincided with either celtic or Anglo-Saxon speaking humans) as they're the result of periglacial erosion up to just after the end of the last ice age; the downland chalk is porous and won't retain water, which leaches downwards into deep aquifers below the chalk.

Perhaps there were more than one old word like "dean" - there's a similar Anglo-Saxon word "den" which means a pig pasture or something similar, and I believe accounts for a lot of the -deans in Kent.

 

[e77]

The place of Sompt? The Place of Steyn? the place of Lance? I like it, I like it a lot!

Broadwater got it's name as their used to be a river running through it (and the green used to have a pond in it).

I knew my GCSE History project would come in useful one day.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

And the 'fold' in Cowfold, Ifold, Alfold, Chiddingfold anyone?

 

[Yorkie]

Just a guess but aren't animals kept in a fold, as in a sheepfold?

 

[Gwylan]

And the 'fold' in Cowfold, Ifold, Alfold, Chiddingfold anyone?

Fold - an enclosure for animals. Thus Cowfold - a place where cows where kept.

Ifold - a place for Is

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Another bit of analism here, anywhere with "Ham" as a suffix is from "Farm" or "Settlement" in Saxon English and anywhere called "Coldharbour" refers to a shelter along the line of an Old Roman Road. Simularly anywhere named "Streat" or "Street" indicates that at one time a Roman Road ran through there.

So, Streat near Lewes was once onthe course of the Greensand way from Chichester to Pevensey, and Streatham was once a settlement on the Stane street from Chichester to London. Coldharbour Lane in South London was also on the course of the same road

God I need to get out more.

 

[Brovion]

Might be wrong, but isn't "-ing" an Anglo-Saxon/Old German suffix meaning "people of"? As in Hastings = "people of Hasta", and so on? With a kind of possessive nuance, more "(place of the) people of"? So, Steyning would be "the place where Steyn's people live", and so on.

I believe that's true. When I lived in Lancing I know that had gone through several name changes: Lancinges and Wencling being two. The latter gives a clue as it was the place of "Wencla's people"

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I believe that's true. When I lived in Lancing I know that had gone through several name changes: Lancinges and Wencling being two. The latter gives a clue as it was the place of "Wencla's people"

Or perhaps "Lances People" who was this Lance character?

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

Fold - an enclosure for animals. Thus Cowfold - a place where cows where kept.

Ifold - a place for Is

I think 'fold' is a forest clearing.

 

[Man of Harveys]

As an aside, what I'd like to know is why the Welsh and German words for carrot so similar yet the two languages share no other words for vegetables? There's obviously a common root but why carrots? That's a question that's baffled me for ages.

And that's the sort of post that just makes me wanna

I presume you mean the German word "Moehren", as opposed to "Karotten"? I'm sure I've heard them use both but don't know if there's a difference between them. It's probably a regional thing, with the former more in the north (it sounds more of a Danish word). But why the Welsh use either, god knows. What's the Welsh for cabbage? (this Friday is going to FLY by).

 

[Perry's Tracksuit Bottoms]

The full OED entry for dene...

[OE. denu, acc. dene, valleyTeut. *dani-, from the same root as OE. den(n, DEN OTeut. danj-om), q.v.]

A vale: a. formerly the ordinary word, literal and figurative (as in OE. déa-denu valley of death, ME. dene of teres), and still occurring in the general sense in some local names, as the Dean, Edinburgh, Taunton Dean, the wide valley of the Tone above Taunton, and perh. Dean Forest; b. now, usually, the deep, narrow, and wooded vale of a rivulet.
As a common appellative, used in Durham, Northumberland, and adjacent parts of Scotland and England; as part of a proper name, separate or in composition, occurring much more widely, e.g. Denholm Dean in Roxburghshire, Jesmond Dean or Dene near Newcastle, Castle Eden Dean or Dene and Hawthorndene in Durham, Chellow Dene near Bradford, North Dean near Halifax, Hepworth Dene near Huddersfield, Deepdene near Dorking, East Dean, West Dean, Ovingdean, Rottingdean, in deep wooded vales in the chalk downs near Brighton. The spelling dene is that now prevalent in Durham and Northumberland. In composition often shortened to den, as Marden, Smarden, Biddenden, etc. in Kent.

 

[Perry's Tracksuit Bottoms]

Obviously the OED didn't have the smileys. It tends to use old fashioned punctuation instead.

 

[Gwylan]

I presume you mean the German word "Moehren", as opposed to "Karotten"? I'm sure I've heard them use both but don't know if there's a difference between them. It's probably a regional thing, with the former more in the north (it sounds more of a Danish word). But why the Welsh use either, god knows.

Yes. I meant Moehren. And it's the word that I've heard used the most, but then, all my time in Germany has been spent in the north.

EDIT: And Welsh for carrots is the splendid moron

What's the Welsh for cabbage? (this Friday is going to FLY by).

Bresych.

No connection with Kraut, chou or cabbage then

 

[Gwylan]

I think 'fold' is a forest clearing.

Are you thinking of _ley (as in Amberley)? That means a grove or a forest clearing

 

[Man of Harveys]

Yes. I meant Moehren. And it's the word that I've heard used the most, but then, all my time in Germany has been spent in the north.

EDIT: And Welsh for carrots is the splendid moron

Maybe it's something to do with the "Moors", the German word for which being "Mohr". A bit like turkeys being called that in English because the Brits thought they came from Turkey and "dinde" in French because they thought they came from India, that sort of thing. None of which answers the question as to why the Germans and Welsh (and that's 3/4 of my ethnicity, so I feel I should KNOW this) might to think that carrots were brought in by Moors etc.

 

[NMH]

Are you thinking of _ley (as in Amberley)? That means a grove or a forest clearing

Hence the 'ley-lines', which were often signified by cuts into wooded areas.

They were used to signal invasions and suchlike, by ancient Brits - who would build fires on top of 'tors'. These were called 'beacons' I believe - so there must have been a prominent one near Ditchling

(I can't recall ever getting leyed in Ditchling)

 

[Gwylan]

Maybe it's something to do with the "Moors", the German word for which being "Mohr". A bit like turkeys being called that in English because the Brits thought they came from Turkey and "dinde" in French because they thought they came from India, that sort of thing. None of which answers the question as to why the Germans and Welsh (and that's 3/4 of my ethnicity, so I feel I should KNOW this) might to think that carrots were brought in by Moors etc.

According to the Carrot Museum website (really), carrots were brought to Europe by the Moors. "...At this time Arab merchants traversing the trade routes of Africa, Arabia, and Asia brought seeds of this purple carrot back home with them. From their villages and cities along the coast of North Africa, Moors brought the carrot up into Spain and to the rest of Europe..."

It goes on to say that carrots were brought to England by Flemings in the 15th century: doesn't mention Welsh.

I've no idea what Moor is in Welsh, so can't help with the etymology of that one.