Hillsborough

[clapham_gull]

I,m not arguing with you.....just pointing out what "surmised" means.

I,ve always though very highly of people from Liverpool. I worked with about a group of 20 of them for 3 years in the early' 90s in Germany................and I can put hand on heart and say, ever single one of them was a scumbag.

Fair enough and I've changed my post now

It's simply unbelievable that people continue to post bollocks over it. There was so much going on that day beyond the myth that ticketless fans caused the problem.

There was also the infamous computer system that couldn't send the cutting gear out because the police officer who made the call didn't know the street the away end was in.

Not the policemans fault, just another factor in the disaster. "Hillsborough" just didn't come up on the system.

A highly complex catalogue of errors, crudely and cruely denied on here by someone with a personal problem with scousers.

 

[drew]

It's amazing how often that myth gets peddled out.

I'd advise you to read the offical report at the time to see how much effect fans turning up without tickets had on the tragedy.

Did you know the health and safety executive painstakingly sat through all the CCTV and counted every single fan entering the stadium and compared it to the tickets that were sold ?

Added to that, tickets were still available on the day.

Quite simply what you've suggested happened quite simply didn't. Just because newspapers and television media reported it at the time because of the misleading comments of an discredited official (and subsequently apologised) doesn't make it true.

So let us just again repeat the line from the Taylor report that you seem to be unable to understand:

Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster.

Quite what gives you the authority to have a different take on it is beyond comprehension. Did you commision your own report ?

I think a lot of people seem to be missing the point that there were a lot of contributory factors to the disaster. The Taylor report puts the main responsibility on the fact that gate c was opened (by the Police) without the tunnel to pens 3 and 4 being blocked to prevent further access to those pens.

However, I quote directly from the report with regard to the congestion outside the ground which led to the Police decision to open gate c 'The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem'. It doesn't say how many were in that minority but I would suggest for it to be mentioned it was more than one or two.

As for the question of the ticketless fans, how can someone counting people going into a ground, especially when gate c was opened, determine which ones had tickets and which ones didn't. As for your comments about the HSE, I suggest you read the report yourself before lambasting anyone else. I quote from the report (paragraph 202) 'Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124'. 'Best estimate', do you know what that means? Taylor himself accepts there were fans without tickets (see paragraphs 200 to 208 of the interim report).

At the end of the day, as I said at the start, there were numerous factors that contributed to the disaster, chiefly of which were the decision taken by the Police but also, admittedly to a far lesser extent, the actions of a minority of supporters on the day, those supporters being the ones from Liverpool.

 

[clapham_gull]

I think a lot of people seem to be missing the point that there were a lot of contributory factors to the disaster. The Taylor report puts the main responsibility on the fact that gate c was opened (by the Police) without the tunnel to pens 3 and 4 being blocked to prevent further access to those pens.

However, I quote directly from the report with regard to the congestion outside the ground which led to the Police decision to open gate c 'The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem'. It doesn't say how many were in that minority but I would suggest for it to be mentioned it was more than one or two.

As for the question of the ticketless fans, how can someone counting people going into a ground, especially when gate c was opened, determine which ones had tickets and which ones didn't. As for your comments about the HSE, I suggest you read the report yourself before lambasting anyone else. I quote from the report (paragraph 202) 'Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124'. 'Best estimate', do you know what that means? Taylor himself accepts there were fans without tickets (see paragraphs 200 to 208 of the interim report).

At the end of the day, as I said at the start, there were numerous factors that contributed to the disaster, chiefly of which were the decision taken by the Police but also, admittedly to a far lesser extent, the actions of a minority of supporters on the day, those supporters being the ones from Liverpool.

I've read the report a number of times. Whether there were ticketless fans or not is completely irrelevant. Tickets were still available and if the stand was full to capacity with 100% of the fans being in possession of a ticket it could even have been worse.

I've have been at a number of games over the years where has there been an element of drunk and unruly fans but it didn't lead to
a disaster.

You've also failed to mention the requests to postpone the kick off time, that were ignored.

They are also some very interesting factors about the officials in charge (or possibly not the officials in charge) that day that isn't mentioned in the report. Can't be bothered to repeat it here, but it is well worth a look if you can find it or can be bothered.

It's quite clear what the problem was and someone to suggest it was the fault of the fans is very very wide of the mark.

 

[drew]

I've read the report a number of times. Whether there were ticketless fans or not is completely irrelevant. Tickets were still available and if the stand was full to capacity with 100% of the fans being in possession of a ticket it could even have been worse.

I've have been at a number of games over the years where has there been an element of drunk and unruly fans but it didn't lead to
a disaster.

You've also failed to mention the requests to postpone the kick off time, that were ignored.

They are also some very interesting factors about the officials in charge that day that isn't in the report themselves. Can't be bothered to repeat it here, but it is well worth a look if you can find it.

It's quite clear what the problem was and someone to suggest it was the fault of the fans is very very wide of the mark.

All in all this reads like a dig at me (mmmm.... wonder why), rather than the subject in question, unless you feel you have the ability to defend the poster in question against all available evidence to the contrary.

A dig at you? I don't even know you. I just pointed out that your comments were not correct. If you are going to use the report to support your arguments then at least do it correctly.

You can't seem to grasp the concept that there were a number of factors that caused the disaster.

 

[clapham_gull]

A dig at you? I don't even know you. I just pointed out that your comments were not correct. If you are going to use the report to support your arguments then at least do it correctly.

You can't seem to grasp the concept that there were a number of factors that caused the disaster.

Which comments were incorrect ? I've already noted that were a number of factors in play.

 

[drew]

Which comments were incorrect ?

You said the HSE counted all the people that entered. They didn't. They counted some and estimated others. Your comment implied it was a factual number that went in.

And for the record, I don't concur with the comments of Jamie. I see him and you as being at the opposite ends of the discussion, neither being able to grasp the concept of contributary factors.

 

[drew]

Also, from which report did you extract this line as it's not in the interim report? (as far as I can tell).

'So let us just again repeat the line from the Taylor report that you seem to be unable to understand:

Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster'

 

[clapham_gull]

You said the HSE counted all the people that entered. They didn't. They counted some and estimated others. Your comment implied it was a factual number that went in.

And for the record, I don't concur with the comments of Jamie. I see him and you as being at the opposite ends of the discussion, neither being able to grasp the concept of contributary factors.

They came up with a number of figures which lead them to believe that the existance of not of ticketless fans wasn't a contributary factors.

His views are hardly the opposite end of the discussion they are simply untrue.

The fact remains that if the stand was at full capacity with everyone single person in possession of a ticket it would have been exactly the same.

My views cannot be described as extreme, they are simply directed towards people who continue to post blantant lies about the incident because certain parts of the media did at the time.

Frankly we are a bit more media savvy these days. The newsapers wouldn't have got away with it because the airways would have been full of first hand accounts within hours. A case in point the shooting at Stockwell.

I'm fully aware that there were a number of factors involved, probably more than you are and sadly, it's always the case when a disaster like this happens. Even the poor bloke who wrote the software that the fire brigade used would have had a hand it in.

 

[Jamie]

I think a lot of people seem to be missing the point that there were a lot of contributory factors to the disaster. The Taylor report puts the main responsibility on the fact that gate c was opened (by the Police) without the tunnel to pens 3 and 4 being blocked to prevent further access to those pens.

However, I quote directly from the report with regard to the congestion outside the ground which led to the Police decision to open gate c 'The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem'. It doesn't say how many were in that minority but I would suggest for it to be mentioned it was more than one or two.

As for the question of the ticketless fans, how can someone counting people going into a ground, especially when gate c was opened, determine which ones had tickets and which ones didn't. As for your comments about the HSE, I suggest you read the report yourself before lambasting anyone else. I quote from the report (paragraph 202) 'Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124'. 'Best estimate', do you know what that means? Taylor himself accepts there were fans without tickets (see paragraphs 200 to 208 of the interim report).

At the end of the day, as I said at the start, there were numerous factors that contributed to the disaster, chiefly of which were the decision taken by the Police but also, admittedly to a far lesser extent, the actions of a minority of supporters on the day, those supporters being the ones from Liverpool.

mate you are wasting your breath.Its like a moral one upmanship. Im a nice peson because I buy a t shirt that says justice for the 96. Logic cannot defeat blind faith. I just wish the scousers would stop trying to sue people who were after all, just doing their job.

 

[herecomesaregular]

mate you are wasting your breath.Its like a moral one upmanship. Im a nice peson because I buy a t shirt that says justice for the 96. Logic cannot defeat blind faith.I just wish the scousers would stop trying to sue people who were after all, just doing their job.[/QUOTE

your logic?!! you are the polar opposite of blind faith and have the same blinkered view.