Hillsborough verdict: Fans unlawfully killed

[ROSM]

The Taylor report actually killed off the claim that drunken ticketed fans didn't cause Hillsborough once but the police and government allowed it to rise again. On here we have had people still peddling that line right up to 2012

 

[Captain Sensible]

I'm not saying I disagree. But whats in it for the clubs ?

I think that on the whole they would probably prefer to maintain the ban on alcohol when watching the game, and they would like to maintain the control they currently have by knowing who is buying every ticket for every seat, rather than the old terrace ticket stand-where-you-like that would result if they agreed to safe standing.

It's not the buying alcohol whilst watching the game that's necessarily the issue. The clubs can decide when they sell alcohol, the can be no alcohol purchasing whist the game is on, but why can't we buy a pint of beer with a pie and something for the kids and go and sit down in our seats in time for fan zone? I think the club would rather we took our seats earlier.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The Taylor report actually killed off the claim that drunken ticketed fans didn't cause Hillsborough once but the police and government allowed it to rise again. On here we have had people still peddling that line right up to 2012

Exactly! IF you look at the difference between the initial Taylor Report straight after Hillsborough, it was largely correct in its assumptions. Fast forward to the 'Final' report, and it's all about Hooliganism.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The Alcohol ban was introduced with the Sporting Events Act 1985.

But the Taylor report backed it up and recommended further higher penalties. The Act has been lifted for other sporting events. Football clubs and fans should be able to stand safely and drink within view of the pitch if the fans and clubs wish. The Taylor report as I've said is largely out of date and based on lies.

 

[Nixonator]

Well that was an uncomfortable read to say the least.

 

[8ace]

But the Taylor report backed it up and recommended further higher penalties. The Act has been lifted for other sporting events. Football clubs and fans should be able to stand safely and drink within view of the pitch if the fans and clubs wish. The Taylor report as I've said is largely out of date and based on lies.

The original 1985 restrictions got made football only in 2005, the Taylor report didn't change the Alcohol restrictions over and above the 1985 act. I agree the Taylor is bollocks and I've always known it was mainly the OB's fault - but it has nothing to do with the drinking in view of the pitch rules.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well done to Andy Burnham for keeping asking the questions, and finally got the second inquest process going.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The original 1985 restrictions got made football only in 2005, the Taylor report didn't change the Alcohol restrictions over and above the 1985 act. I agree the Taylor is bollocks and I've always known it was mainly the OB's fault - but it has nothing to do with the drinking in view of the pitch rules.

You are correct, the Taylor Report just cemented that the act (in the authorities eyes) was correct. You cannot deny that the Taylor Report had a significant influence on the 2005 act removing other sports but staying in effect for football. Now that it is 100% official that neither Alcohol, Fans, or standing per say caused the Hillsborough disaster, these daft laws need revisiting. There are still lazy stereotypes associated with football fans with alcohol ralated hooliganism. How is it that drinking alcohol while watching football, poses more risk than at rugby or cricket? Such a views needs to be re evaluated.

 

[Stato]

Fantastic writing from David Conn here: http://www.theguardian.com/football...-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

Had stop halfway through as it was choking me up. Finished it just now.

I don't know about everyone else but the second strongest emotion I'm feeling now, behind relief, is anger. The really scary thing? My anger likely isn't even a dot compared to that of the victims families. I can't even begin to imagine how I would control that level of vitriol.

Brilliant article by Conn. His contribution to tonight's PM is also worth hearing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0783lhd

Conn comes on at about 13 and a half minutes, but the BBC's report that precedes him is worth hearing too.

 

[8ace]

You are correct, the Taylor Report just cemented that the act (in the authorities eyes) was correct. You cannot deny that the Taylor Report had a significant influence on the 2005 act removing other sports but staying in effect for football. Now that it is 100% official that neither Alcohol, Fans, or standing per say caused the Hillsborough disaster, these daft laws need revisiting. There are still lazy stereotypes associated with football fans with alcohol ralated hooliganism. How is it that drinking alcohol while watching football, poses more risk than at rugby or cricket? Such a views needs to be re evaluated.

The hooliganism (inside grounds) has almost entirely been eliminated due to segregation and CCTV - I'm not sure people are any less pissed than they once were.
In the old days you used to be able to bring your own shant into the ground, this will never return - for commercial reasons more than anything.

 

[vegster]

Been listening to the 5Live prog on the way back from work, all those years ago and it is still heartbreaking. I had tears in my eyes, those poor people,

 

[Captain Sensible]

The hooliganism (inside grounds) has almost entirely been eliminated due to segregation and CCTV - I'm not sure people are any less pissed than they once were.
In the old days you used to be able to bring your own shant into the ground, this will never return - for commercial reasons more than anything.

I think that's probably a good thing too. But is no good reason why you can't buy a pie and a pint 10 minutes before the game and sit in your seat to drink it.

 

[Diego Napier]

Well done to Andy Burnham for keeping asking the questions, and finally got the second inquest process going.

I agree and as a committed socialist, I think it's to David Cameron's very great credit that he sanctioned/instigated the inquiry and Tony (sitting in Murdoch's pocket) Blair's everlasting shame that he didn't.

 

[BigGully]

Sorry, this is much worse than a thing of the time. It was a careless bit of police-driven negligence, followed by a police-run conspiracy, backed up by the thatcher government and the Thatcher fan press..

But thats my point, apart from perhaps your political swipe, everything you say was 'a thing of the time' underpinned by out of control football hooliganism.

The fences, the policing, the crowds general conduct, the run down ground, the unprepared emergency services wasn't unique to this game, it was happening week in week out at nearly every well attended football game for years.

 

[Ernest]

I agree and as a committed socialist, I think it's to David Cameron's very great credit that he sanctioned/instigated the inquiry and Tony (sitting in Murdoch's pocket) Blair's everlasting shame that he didn't.

I don't think Cameron had any choice and even a few years back even he was peddling the Tory establishment blame the fans line

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

A small point, we arrived at Charlton with ten minutes to kick off due to the train sitting in a siding for ten minutes.
The stand was packed so we ended up on the stairs halfway down behind the goal.
When Albion scored the first goal there was a surge behind us and several of us were knocked off our feet me included.
It reminded me of the early Seventies but not in a good way.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

A small point, we arrived at Charlton with ten minutes to kick off due to the train sitting in a siding for ten minutes.
The stand was packed so we ended up on the stairs halfway down behind the goal.
When Albion scored the first goal there was a surge behind us and several of us were knocked off our feet me included.
It reminded me of the early Seventies but not in a good way.

Clever Post.

 

[ROSM]

I agree and as a committed socialist, I think it's to David Cameron's very great credit that he sanctioned/instigated the inquiry and Tony (sitting in Murdoch's pocket) Blair's everlasting shame that he didn't.

The inquiry was sanctioned under Gordon Brown. Jacqui Smith was home secretary for some of the set up as was Alan Johnson for the rest.

What Teresa may did to her eternal credit was ensure that the papers would be made public

 

[Lush]

I also blamed the fans as to me it looked like a few thousand to many fans at least who were ticketless....maybe there was a fair few ticketless as it was common back then,but the police lost control at the end of the day and justice is served.

Certainly I've never heard of anyone publicly saying that they got into the away end without a ticket that day.

So sad though that fans weren't kept safe at a football match.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Suits the Sun agenda, dunnit.

On a similar vein, I went against every principle and commented on the Daily Mirror story about doorstepping Ingham, asking whether they were going to give Kelvin Mackenzie the same treatment, being that he was a former employee of Mirror Group Newspapers. To my shock and surprise (ahem...), it was removed by a moderator. Funny that.

Liverpool Echo has already tried that - surprisingly he wasn't answering the door.