I think [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] dug out two pieces of differing Ts&Cs copy, one of which at least implied that attendance was required.
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Have the Bournemouth letters hit the doormat yet?
- Thread starter Giraffe
- Start date
I think [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] dug out two pieces of differing Ts&Cs copy, one of which at least implied that attendance was required.
Yep. The original T&Cs had two, conflicting, terms on points allocation. One said that all that was required was purchase, the other said attendance was required.
Since my original posts on the subject, I've had a proper look through the T&Cs with an eye for looking for ambiguities, conflicts and omissions. I found one further conflict, two omissions and no fewer than 11 ambiguities. Really not PLR, especially if the club are now going to use them to sanction fans for breaking them. If you intend to use them to penalise folk, the very least you can do is ensure that they're reasonably water-tight. They're not remotely close to being so in the first iteration.
Hopefully v2 will be...
Consider your bottoms smacked.
Huge over reaction considering it is unlikely to happen again this season anyway (possibly FA cup but unlikely to be same circumstances)
If the points were not a closed shop then it probably wouldn't of happened. Along with the £10 for 10 points decision.
Still , naughty boys and girls. No sweets for a month !
Huge over reaction considering it is unlikely to happen again this season anyway (possibly FA cup but unlikely to be same circumstances)
If the points were not a closed shop then it probably wouldn't of happened. Along with the £10 for 10 points decision.
Still , naughty boys and girls. No sweets for a month !
I still think this is all a bit of an non-issue. The club has sent out a warning. The Bournemouth cup game was a one off (cup game, Tuesday evening, four days after a match at the same place, 15 loyalty points... etc etc). The chances of 'harvesting' happening at any scale for remaining away league matches this season remain small, in my opinion. Arsenal away stand looked full to bursting. Nearly everyone who bought a ticket, either attended the match, or transferred/sold the ticket to another Brighton fan. My guess is that the same will be true of West Ham, and Swansea. As long as that continues to be the case, the cost and effort involved for the club of obtaining scan data from the away clubs and matching with purchase history, writing letters etc as they have done with Bournemouth, will be not worth the candle simply in order to catch a small handful of harvesters. So it won't happen.
I`m still at a loss to know if I as a st holder can give ticket to someone else if I can`t go to home game....... I do,as I`m sure 90% of others do.......Are we allowed to ?.... I and my two sons have three season tickets between us and it is rare we all go. It is usually two of us and a friend.
JONNY TWICKERS
New member
Soistes, all very true -t he Arsenal game was indeed full top bursting & no doubt everyone who bought a ticket either attended the match or transferred/sold the ticket to another Brighton fan.
However, the club are now saying in their email that they don't want us to transfer / sell an away ticket to another Brighton fan - unless we are sure that fan has enough Loyalty points! How are we supposed to check that fan's number of loyalty points?!!. Will they impose punitive measures on both parties if that fan is just short of a certain number of points but is nevertheless a longstanding loyal season ticket holding supporter?
Ridiculous!
However, the club are now saying in their email that they don't want us to transfer / sell an away ticket to another Brighton fan - unless we are sure that fan has enough Loyalty points! How are we supposed to check that fan's number of loyalty points?!!. Will they impose punitive measures on both parties if that fan is just short of a certain number of points but is nevertheless a longstanding loyal season ticket holding supporter?
Ridiculous!
You highlight a glaring further ambiguity in the club's latest missives. I don't think they meant to leave the loophole that you and others have commented on. I think they mean to say that you can't transfer away tickets (or home either, but that's a separate issue), full stop. However, the way they've worded it does leave open the possibility that it's ok to transfer an away ticket to a fan if they have the required LP. This is very unlikely to be what they mean, because the club's ticketing T&Cs and the away ticket itself has "non-transferable" all over them/it.
Why would you even HAVE an away ticket that you needed to sell on, unless you were abusing the system?
Why would you even HAVE an away ticket that you needed to sell on, unless you were abusing the system?
I can think of actual examples I know of where this has happened and doesn't really look like abuse to me. E.g. I know a couple, both STHs, and both of whom had away tickets for Arsenal, and relatively late in the day it turned out that one of them couldn't attend through illness, so they gave the ticket to a third family member (also a STH as it happens, but who was in the third tier of points for Arsenal so hadn't been able to buy a ticket in their own right). Technically an abuse of the terms of the ticket, I guess, but the illness occurred on the Saturday evening (match took place Sunday at 12), so it would have been close to impossible to notify the club in time for them to get the ticket resold to a more 'deserving' fan. Would this couple have been "abusing the system" in your view?
Technically yes - but they are not who we (or more importantly, the club) are talking about, are they?
But it is difficult to turn a cheek to it, because let's face it - every single person who sells /passes on a ticket, that they've bought solely to keep their points up, is going to claim this scenario. Illness, or something important coming up last minute.
Exactly so. And therein lies the impossibility of being fair to everyone if this is to be policed. The club have to either sanction everyone caught, irrespective of reason given, or let everyone off (or at least everyone who says anything other than "it's a fair cop; I was harvesting".)
Or... threaten to sanction every transgressor, in the hope that all but hardened harvesters will be guilt tripped out of the behaviour, but not actually do anything...
or more simply, don't create the situation where 'harvesting' seems like something that might be worth doing... i.e. offering lots of points for cheap tickets
Exactly - and that's my interpretation of what's going on with the club's recent strong statement, and the latest letter to Bournemouth harvesters. I'm convinced that the number of hardened harvesters for league matches is tiny in any case.
Yep. You've made that point before; I was initially sceptical, but as I posted before, warmed to the idea. I'm now blazing hot on the idea.
I'd also like extend the idea to include zero points for the glamour away ties. As others have suggested previously, the reward for being in tier 1, (and some of 2) is that you get a ticket to Man U away. No need to further widen the LP gap - you'll still be in tier 1 for, say, Stoke away if that's the next game.
However, your point would require the club to admit at least some culpability in having created the situation in the first place. We both know that hasn't happened yet, and there's no sign of it doing so now either.
It's far easier for the club to say the fans have "abused" the system (which morally some certainly have) and leave gaping loopholes in their system for others to abuse in the future than it is for them to say "some fans abused the spirit of the system, so we acknowledge that we tacitly encouraged this behaviour and will tighten up the T&Cs to provide clarity and are making some adjustments to number of points awarded". The latter requires some humility. Yep, that's going to happen.
fosters headband
Well-known member
How do the loyalty points work for 1901 seats when business may have a number of seats. Do the seats attract loyalty points or does just the lead contact for the seats get points. Or are they just not allowed to apply for away tickets?
greyseagull
New member
I have x 2 1901 seats and have to wait until away tickets go on general sale. By which time they have obviously all gone.
Based on the current fixtures Arsenal West Ham and Utd all consecutive so your proposal would see zero points allocated for these games but Tier 1 fan goes to these games but he can't make the Swansea game due to family wedding (as an example). Someone in tier 2 doesn't go to the 3 games as they can't be bothered as zero points and 2 of the 3 games are on TV. However they decide to go to the Swansea game as they have family in South Wales and will get 15 points for going.
Tier 1 fan 3 games 0 points
Tier 2 fan 1 game 15 points
Borh fans are just above and belie the cut off. Next round of away tickets released and the 15 points pyshes the Tier 2 fan into Tier 1 and the lack of points pushes the Tier 1 fan down to Tier 2.
A fan who has supported the team at 3 away games 2 of which were on TV now finds themselves below someone who attended 1 game.
How is this fair.
There should still be some reward for attending away games.
Even only 5 points for the glamour games againt 15 for Swansea would still keep the balance so attending more games does not mean a demotion.
There are some highly specific factors at play in your scenario: 3 glamour games on the trot (undeniable, but pretty unusual), both fans - the tier 1 and the tier 2 - are on the border of the tiers, and it just happens that the tier 1 can't make Swansea. That's quite the scenario you're creating...
However, given your scenario, your conclusion is accurate.
Is that "fair"? For that specific fan, clearly not (though, since we got promoted, they've clearly become a glory hunter - I jest). I think there's a case to be made that it might be "fair" for the fan base as a whole though. Debatable.
I'll introduce something else here. Something that someone observed a week or two ago, which I've been pondering, and I think they were right - I'm embarrassed to say I can't remember who said it.
Their point was: why worry about a widening LP gap between someone at the bottom of tier 1 and the top of tier 2 (and by implication, anywhere else) at all? Here's why: all the LP system does is to create a prioritised allocation list. If person A is at position 3000 on the list (and gets the ticket to Man U and the 5 LP) and person B is at 3001 on the list, and doesn't, their respective positions will be identical for the next away game - they'll still be 3000 and 3001....
I haven't thought it through completely yet, but I think there's a point to consider. The psychology of a widening gap isn't helpful, of course, but the actual reality is the same whether zero, 5 or 500 LP are awarded for Man U....
Isn't it....??
I've made a similar point as has [MENTION=4417]The Complete Badger[/MENTION] amongst others.
The widening gap, in terms of points, between the real hard-core 1,500 or so away travellers and the rest is immaterial. Most fans do not or can not put in the time, money and effort to go to nearly every away game.
But for those in the 2,500 - 4,000ish positions on the ladder, it really is quite key. Being in the first 3,000 means you know you will get a ticket for Old Trafford if you want one. If you are position 3,500 you are going to have to wait for the scraps to become available to Tier 2 and you may miss out because Queue It gave you position 379 in the queue and tickets sold out at position 378. Thus some people not only get a ticket you wanted, but they get points to move them a bit further ahead of you too. And all because you were unlucky with the Queue It random number generator.
It amazing how many people are too "ill" to attend a football match. What do they do when they have booked a flight which can not be transferred? Oh they just about recover and don't moan about the nasty air line not letting a mate use the ticket