Has Cameron blown it with the EU negotiations ?

[Hampster Gull]

Fundamentally I'm on the left and pro European in the believe that it should be a progressive cause for dealing with social, security and environmental issues. But it ain't working and Cameron's deal weakens that further and as such I am out.

Why should the EU be the so called "progressive" which is a word the left have taken? What it should do is be accountable to its people in a democratic way and that will at times mean the things you say, but not necessarily.

 

[sir albion]

Quite we're not treated like 'shit', we are treated equally, and not like the colonial overlords some seem to think we still are.

O look a socialist lefty lol
This is why we don't belong on the EU as the likes of Germany and France will never be our friends regardless and they no doubt love seeing our great country drained by the EU.
It's views like this that tell you all you need to know about certain British people....They're not proud to be British becaus they're fixated on our history and what we've done.
It's as if British socialist idiots want us to suffer more than most....shocking types we don't need.

 

[larus]

I suspect that should we vote out and leave, it may come to a point in the (distant) future* where we would be far better off within the EU again and we look to rejoin then we would probably end up having to give up a lot (probably including things like our currency) to get in, (more than we have given up now) and may suffer in the meantime as we may get isolated economically

(*once the Eu has sorted out the early teething problems and become far stronger and important globally on political and economic grounds - it's trying to create something that can compete with the US and China, and other major economic powers which as individual states, they would otherwise struggle)

What, like the fundamental issues of the Euro and the need to admit to voters that for the Eur to survive, there must be a transfer of wealth from rich parts (Germany) to poor parts. The rich parts won't underwrite the excesses of other states, so the Euro cannot work.

A currency union CANNOT work without a fiscal and political union. For it to work, Europe has to become one country. Nothing else is viable. They are fudging through. Look at the extreme levels of unemployment in Southern Europe. No-one can possibly say this is a success or morally right.

The problems with the Euro area have not gone away; won't go away and are being hidden by the ECB buying state debt in Greece, Italy, Portugal. It's a house of cards and the next economic downturn will cause even more severe strain than 2008.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As an outer and a Gove despiser him join the out side won't me make me change my vote. This is far more important than who I end up siding with.

I'm quite interested in the steer given by political leaders. Albeit this is usually when they are selling their arses (sorry, 'wares'). I find it odd to see left and right fragmenting over this. It tells me that nobody really knows what is at stake (even if some like you have a strong conviction).

My own view is that staying is the safe option, but leaving is the exhilarating option. I am sure I'm in the silent majority.

As far as Cameron is concerned, if I were him I'd hop on the helecopter, admit failure, come out as an 'in' person, and resign the leadership. Otherwise he loses all his dignity, hangining on, signing up to a nonsense that fools nobody on the 'out' wing, and replacing Chamberlain (Neville, with his 'little bit of paper') in the derision stakes.

 

[pastafarian]

You do REALISE if we vote OUT that is it, there won't be any renegotiations

not really true,though

article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty says

"A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union"

there will be some sort of negotiations

 

[Hampster Gull]

What, like the fundamental issues of the Euro and the need to admit to voters that for the Eur to survive, there must be a transfer of wealth from rich parts (Germany) to poor parts. The rich parts won't underwrite the excesses of other states, so the Euro cannot work.

It can be mase to work through lots of,shabby deals, which is what we have at the moment. And remember germany are desperate for the euro, it has what has made it very rich. It has sucked in other countries who should have been paying a higher interest rate for debt into a lower one in the euro, underpinned by the germans, and they have gouged themselves in debt buying german goods.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

It's the problem you get with all parliaments, committees, organisations etc. They are supposed to take decisions for the common good but all too often individual agendas get in the way. Greece sees a chance to get it's own back because it feels it's been screwed by the Eu so it threatens to derail an agreement.

And there will be others who see an opportunity to score political points or get their retaliation in.

The chances of 28 countries agreeing on anything is pretty remote, virtually all decisions will be good for some and not for others.

'Twas ever thus. The only alternative is a dictator which tends to be even worse. But at least the trains will run on time.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Why should the EU be the so called "progressive" which is a word the left have taken? What it should do is be accountable to its people in a democratic way and that will at times mean the things you say, but not necessarily.

Because there are a lot of issues that can't be resolved solely within our own borders, epidemics, terrorism, war, climate change that the EU should join together to deal with but it is muddled with endless beurochracy and important environmental legislation is getting chopped for the benefit of corporations who don't pay tax and abuse their employees. A forward thinking EU should be a way to deal with these issues, but as you say also be accountable to their own people. At the moment it does neither.

 

[Hampster Gull]

not really true,though

article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty says

"A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union"

there will be some sort of negotiations

100 there will be negotiations and people will be keen to pull the uk back from the brink

 

[Hampster Gull]

Because there are a lot of issues that can't be resolved solely within our own borders, epidemics, terrorism, war, climate change that the EU should join together to deal with but it is muddled with endless beurochracy and important environmental legislation is getting chopped for the benefit of corporations who don't pay tax and abuse their employees. A forward thinking EU should be a way to deal with these issues, but as you say also be accountable to their own people. At the moment it does neither.

Ok, i guess i was picking up on the social word you used

 

[wellquickwoody]

So lots of you here think he's a failure, and he's messed this up. How many of you voted for the Tories in the election?

I did, I voted Tory. And on this issue DC looks like he may have got it wrong.

But this issue is above party politics, it is about a decision which may shape the UK for the next 50 years. When we vote in a GE we are voicing our preference of national government for the next five years, the EU referendum will shape your whole lifetime like it or not. Cheap shots on party political grounds really is missing the point about this.

I feel a failure by Cameron to get a favourable deal for the UK will lead to a big swing to the OUT campaign, but on the day of voting a real fear of the unknown may drag a high percentage of people back to the IN camp. The result?

Personally I will vote to stay in the EU as despite the migrant issue I feel that it is a positive force for trade and business, and therefore for the UK economy. In reality I should not give a sxxt as I will be leaving the UK for good soon.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

O look a socialist lefty lol
This is why we don't belong on the EU as the likes of Germany and France will never be our friends regardless and they no doubt love seeing our great country drained by the EU.
It's views like this that tell you all you need to know about certain British people....They're not proud to be British becaus they're fixated on our history and what we've done.
It's as if British socialist idiots want us to suffer more than most....shocking types we don't need.

Nonsense. Left types are not all the same. Your generalisation is absurd as saying that tories all agree with the election slogan used by a conservative candidate in the 60s ("If you want a n***** for a neighbour, vote labour"). Pathetic. And insulting.

 

[Triggaaar]

I did, I voted Tory. And on this issue DC looks like he may have got it wrong.

Fair enough.

But this issue is above party politics

No, this thread isn't. Of course the decision to leave or stay is far more important, but many here don't like DC or the Tories and will slag him off regardless of whether they want us to leave or not.

it is about a decision which may shape the UK for the next 50 years. When we vote in a GE we are voicing our preference of national government for the next five years, the EU referendum will shape your whole lifetime like it or not. Cheap shots on party political grounds really is missing the point about this.

Yep, but that's what you get.

 

[sir albion]

Nonsense. Left types are not all the same. Your generalisation is absurd as saying that tories all agree with the election slogan used by a conservative candidate in the 60s ("If you want a n***** for a neighbour, vote labour"). Pathetic. And insulting.

Didn't say all as that's impossible....Saying that we do have a lot of socialist youngsters these days who obviously read to many books on our history and decide they're not proud to be British anymore.You know the types that have barely facking lived to understand things grrrrr..!!!

 

[maltaseagull]

Hear me out. I honestly think Cameron is playing a clever blinder. Deep down, unless he gets fundamental change, he actually wants to leave. He is currently manipulating everything, his own party, his European colleagues, the media, to make it look like he is giving it evrything, all night negotiations etc, to get the deal. He knows he won't get a good enough deal, and I think he will actually campaign to leave, and will win a landslide with that.mthe only possible downside is political infighting in the Tory party, but he doesn't care about that, he's leaving anyway. All he really really wants deep down is border control and migration control, and he will get it. It's just not a politically correct one to go straight out and say that's what you want, so he's actually going there smartly by arriving at it from a different direction, and appearing to be politically correct.

Honestly. Bring it on.

Very deep and astute!

Can't wait to see how this ends.

From a purely selfish pov I hope the UK votes in as my status in Malta would be very much at risk as a non EU citizen.
But not sure how I would vote if I was able.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I am not sure i buy this "cameron has messed up" theme propagated here by the lefties and the outers. He made a call he could shape the relationship with the eu a bit. He will get a deal but how good will be in the eye of the public. It will never be enough for those two groups. It is possible, maybe probable, it will be less than he wanted and that relfects the workings of the eu. Prople can vote on what they see

 

[Buzzer]

Yes, he's had a little bit of success but not enough to persuade any 'out' voters to switch to 'in'. And I think it's for two reasons:

1. The rest of the EU are fed up with the UK's demands, our annoying habit of not pulling the party line and not being in the Euro so they are not being as compliant as Cameron wishes.

2. Cameron is at best a fairweather 'in' voter and his heart is not in it. He distrusts and dislikes the institutions, the main players and the way that France and Germany hold the power. I don't believe him when he says he's an enthusiastic believer in being in the EU.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Yes, he's had a little bit of success but not enough to persuade any 'out' voters to switch to 'in'. And I think it's for two reasons:

1. The rest of the EU are fed up with the UK's demands, our annoying habit of not pulling the party line and not being in the Euro so they are not being as compliant as Cameron wishes.

2. Cameron is at best a fairweather 'in' voter and his heart is not in it. He distrusts and dislikes the institutions, the main players and the way that France and Germany hold the power. I don't believe him when he says he's an enthusiastic believer in being in the EU.

I dont think 1 is true. Those making this really difficult are lead by Poland, who have a government more "difficult" than ours. They are just negotiating in true eu style. Germany would prefer to move on. France are bein, well, french and they will always mke the british squirm (as we do to them).

 

[5ways]

If the country votes OUT i suspect the EU will suddenly come up with a good offer. Crazy days

This is the final offer. Done. Fini. End. There is no round 2, that's been made clear.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Didn't say all as that's impossible....Saying that we do have a lot of socialist youngsters these days who obviously read to many books on our history and decide they're not proud to be British anymore.You know the types that have barely racking lived to understand things grrrrr..!!!

Taking what you said out of its context, fair enough. But I'd struggle, really, to call the young lefties I come across as socialist, frankly. And they certainly don't represent anything other than themselves. I'll give you an example. A young lass at work, started on about the tragedy of the death of that tube rail union leader a while back. I forget his name. I pointed out that he campaigned against labour (supporting a minor lefty party), and lives in a council house despite earning an absolute fortune. I said he was a great man for his union, but a pain in the arse to the rest of us. And to Labour. She started blubbing, and claimed she wasn't really interested in party politics, and doesn't actually vote (FFS). Suddenly I was a bully. And she started the conversation.

No, the decion makers (voters) here are the silent majority. Those spouting loudly to stay in or get out are the minority. The rest of us, me included, are confused and bemused that such a nuanced issue should have been thrown to the wolves of a plebiscite - the worst form of democracy. Making smart decisions is what we elect MPs for, and pay them a decent wedge for. Thinking about this, not the opinions of a small number of noisy inners and outers, is what makes me cross.

Anyway, apologies for being a bit 'brusque' (OK, rude ). I just gave you a thumbs up for a comment on another thread, which shows I'm not intractibly partisan