[NSC] Going Vegan (after xmas)

[beorhthelm]

As I have said previous on this thread, eating something in moderation doesn’t stop it from being unhealthy.

yes it does. alcohol is the obvious example, moderate amounts arent unhealthy, even positive effects. salt is another, in small quantities actually necessary for life, too much and bad. studies you draw attention too are often based on feeding rats copious quantities of something to find an effect then scaling to humans. feed moderate amounts and there aren't statistically significant results. where something is unhealthy in moderate amounts we call it poison or toxic, then ban or heavily restrict it.

 

[basque seagull]

Thanks for the tip on nomeatathlete.com. This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for!

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If you pm me your email I can send you their book of recipes in epub format.

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[midnight_rendezvous]

yes it does. alcohol is the obvious example, moderate amounts arent unhealthy, even positive effects. salt is another, in small quantities actually necessary for life, too much and bad. studies you draw attention too are often based on feeding rats copious quantities of something to find an effect then scaling to humans. feed moderate amounts and there aren't statistically significant results. where something is unhealthy in moderate amounts we call it poison or toxic, then ban or heavily restrict it.

Medical studies on humans have been undertaken since the late 50s comparing the lifespans of meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans. Vegetarians and vegans are statistically likely to live longer and far less likely to suffer from heart disease, strokes, forms of cancer (such as breast, colon and prostate), diabetes as well as alzheimer’s disease, dementia, and cognitive decline.

A 2014 Harvard study found that just one serving a day of red meat (moderation to some people as the term is so open to interpretation) during adolescence was associated with a 22 percent higher risk of pre-menopausal breast cancer, and that the same red meat consumption in adulthood was associated with a 13 percent higher risk of breast cancer overall. The medical science just doesn’t back the idea that eating in ‘moderation’ is “ok” I mean, if that’s what you want to tell yourself then that’s fine but we need to stop pretending it’s fact.

 

[beorhthelm]

A 2014 Harvard study found that just one serving a day of red meat (moderation to some people as the term is so open to interpretation)

theres an important point, what is moderation? daily red meat probably isnt, its high. i would wonder what the incidence of pre-menopause brest cancer is, to know if 22% increase risk is significant (isnt for half the popultion). i'll take my chances with moderate consumption of meat and many things thanks.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Medical studies on humans have been undertaken since the late 50s comparing the lifespans of meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans. Vegetarians and vegans are statistically likely to live longer and far less likely to suffer from heart disease, strokes, forms of cancer (such as breast, colon and prostate), diabetes as well as alzheimer’s disease, dementia, and cognitive decline.

A 2014 Harvard study found that just one serving a day of red meat (moderation to some people as the term is so open to interpretation) during adolescence was associated with a 22 percent higher risk of pre-menopausal breast cancer, and that the same red meat consumption in adulthood was associated with a 13 percent higher risk of breast cancer overall. The medical science just doesn’t back the idea that eating in ‘moderation’ is “ok” I mean, if that’s what you want to tell yourself then that’s fine but we need to stop pretending it’s fact.

Out of interest, if they aren't dying of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, or dementia, what are they dying of?

 

[Nixonator]

Medical studies on humans have been undertaken since the late 50s comparing the lifespans of meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans. Vegetarians and vegans are statistically likely to live longer and far less likely to suffer from heart disease, strokes, forms of cancer (such as breast, colon and prostate), diabetes as well as alzheimer’s disease, dementia, and cognitive decline.

A 2014 Harvard study found that just one serving a day of red meat (moderation to some people as the term is so open to interpretation) during adolescence was associated with a 22 percent higher risk of pre-menopausal breast cancer, and that the same red meat consumption in adulthood was associated with a 13 percent higher risk of breast cancer overall. The medical science just doesn’t back the idea that eating in ‘moderation’ is “ok” I mean, if that’s what you want to tell yourself then that’s fine but we need to stop pretending it’s fact.

That is a very specific citation and incorrect based on what we since know today. There's only one person 'telling' themself anything here.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

That is a very specific citation and incorrect based on what we since know today. There's only one person 'telling' themself anything here.

I’m going on what I’ve read from peer reviewed medical studies. I’m not one for confirmation bias, so if you can provide a reputable, peer reviewed source that goes against the overwhelming consensus of medical science, please provide it and I’ll happily give it a read.

 

[beorhthelm]

Out of interest, if they aren't dying of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, or dementia, what are they dying of?

apart from increased levels of anxiety , the same ailments as the meat eaters, in slightly different proportions.

and heres some science: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4691673/

 

[The Clamp]

As I have said previous on this thread, eating something in moderation doesn’t stop it from being unhealthy. And it’s hardly dramatic. Why do you think studies have found, and are still finding, vegetarians and vegans have longer life expectancies?

You’re talking absolute bullshit;

Water
Protein
Vitamins
Salt
Fat
Oats
Tuna
Nuts
Olive oil
Most alcohols
Acidic fruit
Potassium
Iron
Cocoa
Beta carotene


The list is endless.

All things that are very healthy and beneficial in moderation but very harmful in excess.

You have grasped a very small nugget of a theory of veganism and expanded it to justify your viewpoint.
Do some proper research because at present, you are talking utter BS.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

You’re talking absolute bullshit;

Water
Protein
Vitamins
Salt
Fat
Oats
Tuna
Nuts
Most alcohols
Acidic fruit
Potassium
Iron
Beta carotene


The list is endless.

All things that are very healthy and beneficial in moderation but very harmful in excess.

You have grasped a very small nugget of a theory of veganism and expanded it to justify your viewpoint.
Do some proper research because at present, you are talking utter BS.

I don’t need to expand it to justify anything. The medical science speaks for itself. Dismissing it and calling it BS doesn’t make it go away

 

[The Clamp]

I don’t need to expand it to justify anything. The medical science speaks for itself. Dismissing it and calling it BS doesn’t make it go away

I didn’t think you’d have an explanation, just ignore my list and say “science”. And yes, the list I gave you does make your theory “go away”. Because it comprehensively disproves it.
You’re talking rot.

I happen to think a vegan diet can be very healthy. You spouting pseudo science and lies does your cause no favours. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You need to go away and do some balanced research.

To summarise;

There are foods you can eat in moderation that deliver huge health benefits that when consumed in excess can be harmful.

You go away and try and find any reputable scientist or nutritionist that disputes that. You won’t be able to because it’s fact.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I didn’t think you’d have an explanation, just ignore my list and say “science”. And yes, the list I gave you does make your theory “go away”. Because it comprehensively disproves it.
You’re talking rot.

I happen to think a vegan diet can be very healthy. You spouting pseudo science and lies does your cause no favours. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You need to go away and do some balanced research.

With all due respect, as someone who lives and breathes the vegan lifestyle, I’ve probably done more research on veganism and it’s health benefits than you. As I’ve said above, I’m not one to indulge in confirmation bias, so if you can provide reliable, peer reviewed medical research that suggests eating meat is healthy then I’m happy to read it.

Until you provide such evidence, why should I take your list as gospel over actual peer reviewed medical research?

 

[The Clamp]

With all due respect, as someone who lives and breathes the vegan lifestyle, I’ve probably done more research on veganism and it’s health benefits than you. As I’ve said above, I’m not one to indulge in confirmation bias, so if you can provide reliable, peer reviewed medical research that suggests eating meat is healthy then I’m happy to read it.

Until you provide such evidence, why should I take your list as gospel over actual peer reviewed medical research?

Forget about the meat issue, it’s arguable.

You stated categorically that anything that is bad for you cannot be consumed in any quantity that is good for you.
I have proved you wrong. Science proves you wrong.

We will keep it simple; water.
It can kill you if consumed in excess. It’s essential for well-being when consumed in moderation.

You’re talking shit. You’re a loon. Enjoy the rest of the festive season

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Forget about the meat issue, it’s arguable.

You stated categorically that anything that is bad for you cannot be consumed in any quantity that is good for you.
I have proved you wrong. Science proves you wrong when consumed in moderation.

We will keep it simple; water.
It can kill you if consumed in excess. It’s essential for well-being.

You’re talking shit. You’re a loon. Enjoy the rest of the festive season

Even if vegan diets do increase your life who wants to live forever? Germans have a life expectancy of over 80 years and they eat pork knuckles, sausages, potatoes and drink beer every single day. That seems a fair balance to me.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Forget about the meat issue, it’s arguable.

You stated categorically that anything that is bad for you cannot be consumed in any quantity that is good for you.
I have proved you wrong. Science proves you wrong when consumed in moderation.

We will keep it simple; water.
It can kill you if consumed in excess. It’s essential for well-being.

You’re talking shit. You’re a loon. Enjoy the rest of the festive season

I think my exact words were;

“If something is bad for you, it’s bad for you. It doesn’t matter if you consume a lot or a little, it’s still bad for you. Now, you could smoke one cigarette a month and it wouldn’t give you cancer or kill you but that cigarette is still bad for you. Likewise, you could eat a slice of bacon once a month and although it wouldn’t kill you, it is still inherently bad for you.”.

If you can explain how bacon suddenly becomes healthy when only consumed in ‘moderation’ (a vague term that is ultimately different to each person) then please provide said evidence and really ‘prove’ me wrong. Sorry, if the need for actual proof and not just your word for it, is too ‘loony’ for you.

 

[Bakero]

I think my exact words were;

“If something is bad for you, it’s bad for you. It doesn’t matter if you consume a lot or a little, it’s still bad for you. Now, you could smoke one cigarette a month and it wouldn’t give you cancer or kill you but that cigarette is still bad for you. Likewise, you could eat a slice of bacon once a month and although it wouldn’t kill you, it is still inherently bad for you.”.

If you can explain how bacon suddenly becomes healthy when only consumed in ‘moderation’ (a vague term that is ultimately different to each person) then please provide said evidence and really ‘prove’ me wrong. Sorry, if the need for actual proof and not just your word for it, is too ‘loony’ for you.

100g of bacon gives you:

37g of protein
Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and B12
89% of the RDA for selenium
53% of the RDA for phosphorus
Decent amounts of iron, magnesium, zinc and potassium

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

100g of bacon gives you:

37g of protein
Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and B12
89% of the RDA for selenium
53% of the RDA for phosphorus
Decent amounts of iron, magnesium, zinc and potassium

That’s all well and good, however all nutrients found in bacon are also found in other, less processed products. I’d be interested to see how much cholesterol, salt, saturated fats, nitrates, nitrites and nitrosamines are in the equivalent sized portion.

 

[Bakero]

That’s all well and good, however all nutrients found in bacon are also found in other, less processed products.

Of course.

I’d be interested to see how much cholesterol, salt, saturated fats, nitrates, nitrites and nitrosamines are in the equivalent sized portion.

Plenty. But still, the odd bacon sandwich isn't going to do you any harm.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Plenty. But still, the odd bacon sandwich isn't going to do you any harm.

I’m not suggesting ONE bacon sandwich will do you harm per se. It depends on how frequent you class “the odd”...

 

[Bakero]

I’m not suggesting ONE bacon sandwich will do you harm per se. It depends on how frequent you class “the odd”...

I probably have 2 a year. I reckon I'll be alright