GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[DerbyGull]

Why did you change my 'mauling bears' example? You liked that parable earlier. Your examples are wrong - those are still things which are morally reprehensible to society, my point was that some things that are done/said as being morally correct in the Bible are no longer considered so. One example might be stoning.

Incidentally, I'm glad we agree that morals pre-date religion. That seems a shift from your earlier position that religions dictate morals to us.

I changed the example because you used murder as one we generally refrain from doing, but lots of people are still getting up to no good behind their partners back, stealing etc.

I was saying morals came from somewhere (my belief being a benevolent force). We were not pre-programmed to be good, like some believe.

 

[seagullmouse]

Can somebody update me with the progress being made on this thread? When I left it we had some religious zealots praising the lord and some atheists mocking them for their stupidity.
A: Is this still the situation?
B: How much longer can this go on for?

 

[DerbyGull]

Can somebody update me with the progress being made on this thread? When I left it we had some religious zealots praising the lord and some atheists mocking them for their stupidity.
A: Is this still the situation?
B: How much longer can this go on for?

A: Yes
B: It will go on until the apocalypse happens.

 

[Badger]

Can somebody update me with the progress being made on this thread? When I left it we had some religious zealots praising the lord and some atheists mocking them for their stupidity.
A: Is this still the situation?
B: How much longer can this go on for?

God* Knows.




*By God I don't mean any particular god.

 

[Commander]

For the reader to interpret themselves. To use their imagination.

I see. I don't think that's what they said originally though was it? I think that is the answer you give because you don't like to think about it. A bit like the whole 'Ours is not to reason why' nonsense - basically "I don't understand so I'll say I'm not supposed to understand rather than have to think about what may be an uncomfortable truth"

I know for a fact he exists, in FACT he's with me right now.

No, you don't. Nobody knows. You believe, you don't know. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true. Or untrue, for that matter.

There are plenty of people in Iran who believe, just as strongly as you do, that Allah wants them to stone homosexuals.

If you had been brought up in Iran with Muslim parents and Muslim schools and a Muslim society and no way of knowing any other existence, are you telling me that you would still have been a Christian and believed 100% in what you believe in now? Or would you have been a Muslim? Serious question, I've always wondered what religious people think about this.

 

[seagullmouse]

A: Yes
B: It will go on until the apocalypse happens.

So we're no nearer an answer! What a shame, perhaps I was overoptimistic but I thought if anyone could crack the god question it would be NSC. Maybe there just haven't been enough pages yet.


Maybe we should try a different tack, lets find out what we all agree on and work from there?
I'll start with something and let me know if anyone disagrees, then we can build up from there.

1: The universe is an amazing place
2: We do not as yet fully understand the universe

Anyone care to add number 3?

 

[Commander]

Can somebody update me with the progress being made on this thread?

I've now joined and have freshened things up a bit. (Or more likely am going over old points which were done and dusted on page 47 which I haven't bothered to read).

 

[sten_super]

I changed the example because you used murder as one we generally refrain from doing, but lots of people are still getting up to no good behind their partners back, stealing etc.

I was saying morals came from somewhere (my belief being a benevolent force). We were not pre-programmed to be good, like some believe.

Nu, you have changed the meaning of what I wrote.

You insinuate it pretty heavily. Your argument certainly is that religion is responsible for the establishment of these morals, which I'd say is the wrong way round - religion was used to enforce morals that were already present in society. Which is why, for example, we go along with some of them ('no murder', etc) but leave others ('getting bears to maul people who insult us', etc); our society evolves over time and our 'morals' do similarly. To me the Bible simply represents the 'moral' feelings of the time at which it was written.

We still share some of those moral views (i.e. that murder is wrong; I'd argue that adultery is still viewed as wrong by the majority of people) but some we no longer share (such as the belief that a bit of verbal abuse/insults should be met with violence; if you want a different example how about capital punishment, which is epoused in the Old Testament and then Jesus is a bit wooly on in the NT, but is now accepted by quite a lot of the world as being a little bit outdated).

I'm not sure what you mean by saying we're 'not pre-programmed' to be moral. There's some kind of 'moral compass' built into us when we're born, that much seems clear - that's why isolated tribes have been discovered with often a similar set of morals to us (although not always!). The source of that moral compass is, I suppose, what we're really debating. I'd argue that it's a behaviour built into us through evolution (i.e. it's not good for the survival of the species if we all kill each other, so we've learnt that's 'wrong'; similarly if I take something from you it's likely to garner a violent response from you, which is not good for my survival chances, so it's 'wrong', etc. etc.).

 

[DerbyGull]

...There are plenty of people in Iran who believe, just as strongly as you do, that Allah wants them to stone homosexuals.

An example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. What do you know about Islam?

If you had been brought up in Iran with Muslim parents and Muslim schools and a Muslim society and no way of knowing any other existence, are you telling me that you would still have been a Christian and believed 100% in what you believe in now?

I think it's safe to say, we'll never know.

 

[sten_super]

If you had been brought up in Iran with Muslim parents and Muslim schools and a Muslim society and no way of knowing any other existence, are you telling me that you would still have been a Christian and believed 100% in what you believe in now? Or would you have been a Muslim? Serious question, I've always wondered what religious people think about this.

I think it's equally fair to pose this to atheists/agnostics. If I'd had religion forced upon me from a young age (and, despite what some may think, I really don't think that any religion in this country truly does that), would I still be an atheist? My heart says yes, but my head says probably not.

 

[am the one]

Yes there is a GOD, he works at the amex and he has a name, we all call him GUS.


GUS IS GOD, GUS IS GOD, ONE MORE TIME GUS IS GOD.

 

[Commander]

An example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. What do you know about Islam?

There are plenty of Christians who think that too, are they wrong? Why? They believe that just as strongly as you believe your form of more moderate Christianity. They would say that they KNOW that you are wrong.

I don't know a great deal about Islam, I know that the Koran has a lot of the same characters in it as the Bible and I know that it is one of the only religions that says non-believers can go to heaven.

I think it's safe to say, we'll never know.

We'll never know, in the way that you don't KNOW that God exists. But I think we can safely assume that you wouldn't have done, and that you would have been a Muslim. In which case, surely that shows that if Christianity is correct, then it is partly down to chance as to whether you can go to heaven or not? If you were born in the wrong part of the world and were taught the wrong things through no fault of your own, how could you be denied a place in heaven if you have led a good life and been good to your fellow man, but believed the wrong things because you were taught the wrong things? Same with any other religion, it just doesn't add up.

I think it's equally fair to pose this to atheists/agnostics. If I'd had religion forced upon me from a young age (and, despite what some may think, I really don't think that any religion in this country truly does that), would I still be an atheist? My heart says yes, but my head says probably not.

Absolutely. Although as you say I don't think you really get that in this country. I went to a C of E Primary school and my Girlfriend went to a Convent, but it isn't forced on you in the way it is in somewhere like Iran. If I had grown up there I have no doubt I would have been a Muslim rather than someone who seriously doubts the existence of God. Which re-inforces my point really, that would have been completely down to chance.

 

[magoo]

If you're asking me whether i think a man called adam and a woman called eve suddenly appeared in a garden then the answer is obviously no.

It's not obvious to me what you believe. Ok so you believe in the word of the bible but you don't believe in adam and eve but do you believe the world was created in 7 days? Do you believe Moses parted the seas? Do you believe a man was cured of leprosy? Do you believe god truly sent his son to earth to die for our sins? Or are you one of those that thinks it's all a metaphor, handily...

 

[DerbyGull]

Nu, you have changed the meaning of what I wrote.



We still share some of those moral views (i.e. that murder is wrong; I'd argue that adultery is still viewed as wrong by the majority of people) but some we no longer share (such as the belief that a bit of verbal abuse/insults should be met with violence; if you want a different example how about capital punishment, which is epoused in the Old Testament and then Jesus is a bit wooly on in the NT, but is now accepted by quite a lot of the world as being a little bit outdated).

I'm not sure what you mean by saying we're 'not pre-programmed' to be moral. There's some kind of 'moral compass' built into us when we're born, that much seems clear - that's why isolated tribes have been discovered with often a similar set of morals to us (although not always!). The source of that moral compass is, I suppose, what we're really debating. I'd argue that it's a behaviour built into us through evolution (i.e. it's not good for the survival of the species if we all kill each other, so we've learnt that's 'wrong'; similarly if I take something from you it's likely to garner a violent response from you, which is not good for my survival chances, so it's 'wrong', etc. etc.).

Okay, you may think it's fairytales. But the book of Genesis tells us that somewhere along the lines, human beings became evil and wicked. So he kept his blueprint (Noah, an upstanding person) alive and started all over again. Whether you take that on face value or not doesn't really matter. The meaning is still there. We were once savages.

 

[Triggaaar]

But do you not accept the existence of the human conscience?
...
Do you accept the existence of the human conscience?

Yes of course. The fact that you've now asked three times suggests you feel this is evidence of something outside of science?

So how many of the Christians here think Jesus was white? (clue, he wasn't)

 

[beorhthelm]

I know for a fact he exists, in FACT he's with me right now.

with you now? could you ask him why he lets children suffer and die then.

 

[Lush]

Is this still going?

Anyway liked this tweet from Reece Shearsmith a minute ago:

Belief systems: the teddy you can hug all your life. And because it doesn't exist, it won't aggravate your eczema.

 

[sten_super]

Okay, you may think it's fairytales. But the book of Genesis tells us that somewhere along the lines, human beings became evil and wicked. So he kept his blueprint (Noah, an upstanding person) alive and started all over again. Whether you take that on face value or not doesn't really matter. The meaning is still there. We were once savages.

This is where it gets interesting. There is a theory that humans 'jumped forward' behaviourally about 50 thousand years ago to what we now consider normal human behaviour - I'm sure there are those that consider it the work of a god. The only question I'd ask (and I know it's unanswerable) is why then? Why would the god responsible chose that moment? It's believed that humans were 'anatomically correct' for around 100 thousand years before this event may have taken place (if you subscribe to the theory). I can believe that it's a work of chance (evolution has a habit of 'jumping forward' at random intervals) but it seems to me that a sentient being would have some logic behind its timing.

 

[DerbyGull]

There are plenty of Christians who think that too, are they wrong? Why? They believe that just as strongly as you believe your form of more moderate Christianity. They would say that they KNOW that you are wrong.

I don't believed Jesus would have stoned homosexuals for being just that. They're gods creatures after all. Gay or straight isn't the problem, promiscuousness is.

I don't know a great deal about Islam, I know that the Koran has a lot of the same characters in it as the Bible and I know that it is one of the only religions that says non-believers can go to heaven.

I'm also ignorant to the koran, though i would like to read it after i've finished the bible, god delusion etc etc I just thought your snippet of 'muslims stone homosexuals' wasn't really doing islam much justice.

We'll never know, in the way that you don't KNOW that God exists. But I think we can safely assume that you wouldn't have done, and that you would have been a Muslim. In which case, surely that shows that if Christianity is correct, then it is partly down to chance as to whether you can go to heaven or not? If you were born in the wrong part of the world and were taught the wrong things through no fault of your own, how could you be denied a place in heaven if you have led a good life and been good to your fellow man, but believed the wrong things because you were taught the wrong things? Same with any other religion, it just doesn't add up.

I believe if you've led a good life (with or without religion), then you'll be rewarded. You just need to remind yourself to make sure you're on the right path. If you were born in the wrong part of the world and taught the wrong things then how can it be your fault? Jesus forgave his persecutors (who continued to torture him) as he was dying on the cross, presumably because they knew no better. So i don't think it's all black and white.

It's not obvious to me what you believe. Ok so you believe in the word of the bible but you don't believe in adam and eve but do you believe the world was created in 7 days? Do you believe Moses parted the seas? Do you believe a man was cured of leprosy? Do you believe god truly sent his son to earth to die for our sins? Or are you one of those that thinks it's all a metaphor, handily...

Hey if it makes a positive difference in my life and others, does it really matter? As long as I understand the general message: 10 commandments, the 7 sins and the 7 virtues. Live my life by them. Then why do i need to worry about bears reaking havoc?

On that note i'm leaving this tired old debate, AGAIN!

 

[Commander]

If you were born in the wrong part of the world

And there we have it. Christianity = Racism.