Give this head Teacher a 'medal'.

[father_and_son]

No one seems to have touched on the other aspects of discipline that come from a school uniform. Both pre and post school, my experience has been that those in easily identifiable uniforms have, in general, been better behaved, politer and more respectful that those who have a casual dress policy.
Its pretty much common sense, but if you can be readily identified then your behaviour/attitude improves.

Not only is there the personal aspect of "I'm more likely to be caught and punished if more readily identifiable", there's also the aspect of school pride instilled by "representing" the school externally.

All in all I'm pro school uniform but very anti lazy journalism. What isn't clear from the story is what the school has done prior to sending the kids home. The story is dated 5th November, but the new school year has been running a couple of months already. Presumably all the parents were informed before the end of the last academic year and so have had all summer to kit their children out appropriately. I'm sure the school didn't just wait until they were 6-7 weeks into the year and then suddenly start enforcing the uniform policy and I'm sure warnings and milder punishments have gone out since day 1.

What the journalist has done is sensationalised a story of a school finally reaching the end of what seems (to me) a generous period of grace and starting to enforce rules that have been in place for weeks and known about for months. But then a balanced article would be dull!

 

[Hastings gull]

Exactly. I would have preferred a different approach, like for example, an assembly meeting in which the benefits of a tidy well present school uniform are exalted, a genuine effort made to convince using ideas and arguments. I would imagine, especially with young students, a healthy constructive discussion would ensue.

Being well presented and looking after yourself is a matter of self and mutual respect, however being well presented and looking after yourself is an indication of self and mutual respect, it is not the means by which it is achieved. Self/mutual respect should be encouraged to achieve a population of well presented & respectful students, rather than expecting a rule and a uniform to achieve it.

I don't see that uniformity is beneficial to learning in any meaningful way, and it's enforcement as an arbitrary rule to be obeyed likely undermines the very self/mutual respect which should be encouraged.

In general the idea of teaching obedience to kids makes me cringe. I tend to have more hope for the kid who will defy a stupid rule than for the kid who will obey one.

I assume that your background is not in education, not that it should be, I should add. What you describe is exactly what we used to organise -one assembly was always devoted to a fashion show. The person on the catwalk had to come dressed in the school uniform that they deemed to be the most appropriate. This way we tried to encourage an element of self-respect due to smart appearance, as you suggest, as well as involving kids in the process of determining appropriate schoolwear.You keep saying, conveniently, that an arbitrary rule should neither be enforced or obeyed. A school's uniform goes through several channels with pupil, staff, parental and governor input - quite rightly, and it most certainly will not be arbitrary. Of course, uniformity is in isolation not beneficial to learning, but is part of the school's programme to try and produce well-rounded pupils, who will fit into the world of work. Your final alternative is of course stage-managed to suit your argument - I have less sympathy with the kid who disobeys rules agreed and set up for the school.

 

[dingodan]

I assume that your background is not in education, not that it should be, I should add. What you describe is exactly what we used to organise -one assembly was always devoted to a fashion show. The person on the catwalk had to come dressed in the school uniform that they deemed to be the most appropriate. This way we tried to encourage an element of self-respect due to smart appearance, as you suggest, as well as involving kids in the process of determining appropriate schoolwear.You keep saying, conveniently, that an arbitrary rule should neither be enforced or obeyed. A school's uniform goes through several channels with pupil, staff, parental and governor input - quite rightly, and it most certainly will not be arbitrary. Of course, uniformity is in isolation not beneficial to learning, but is part of the school's programme to try and produce well-rounded pupils, who will fit into the world of work. Your final alternative is of course stage-managed to suit your argument - I have less sympathy with the kid who disobeys rules agreed and set up for the school.

Can I ask you, for you is the question of having a uniform on the table? Because you describe involving kids in choosing what uniform they should have to wear, but I don't see a coherent or reasonable argument for the rule that a uniform must be worn in the first place. I don't actually have a problem with uniforms at all. I have a problem with expecting a young person to benefit from being taught that a rule must be obeyed without question, and obeyed not on it's merits and for it's sound reasoning, but obeyed for fear of the punishment which will be dished out if it is not obeyed. I think that an unhealthy lesson to teach.

But that does not mean I am saying throw out the uniforms. What I am saying is that if a uniform is in some way beneficial then just make the case. Just treat these students as the adults and human beings you hope for them to become.

 

[glasfryn]

I wonder if any of you were taught by a nun, discipline was the byword, my last two years were hellish boys and girls were never allowed to talk to one another or sit next to one another (maybe because we might make them pregnant) boy were made to adhere to uniform and the girls virtually wore what they liked
God knows how the hell we learned anything
it was nice to be in another subject so we could loosen our ties and get on and learn something useful.
anyone else have to suffer this

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I'm very much in favour of the Australian summer dress type uniform, worn by 20 year-old actresses, playing schoolgirls in Home and Away, if this adds anything to the debate?

 

[Hastings gull]

Can I ask you, for you is the question of having a uniform on the table? Because you describe involving kids in choosing what uniform they should have to wear, but I don't see a coherent or reasonable argument for the rule that a uniform must be worn in the first place. I don't actually have a problem with uniforms at all. I have a problem with expecting a young person to benefit from being taught that a rule must be obeyed without question, and obeyed not on it's merits and for it's sound reasoning, but obeyed for fear of the punishment which will be dished out if it is not obeyed. I think that an unhealthy lesson to teach.

But that does not mean I am saying throw out the uniforms. What I am saying is that if a uniform is in some way beneficial then just make the case. Just treat these students as the adults and human beings you hope for them to become.

I was not at all sure of your first sentence -it does not make any sense? Traditionally schools have opted for a uniform to ensure that all children look the same, and it reinforces a sense of identity with the school, much the same that Albion's opponents tomorrow will arrive in club track suits. The system has lasted for a long time and the vast majority of folk working in schools seem to think this is a good idea, otherwise it would surely have been binned a long time ago -in fact as schools have moved to academy status, the idea of traditional uniform seems to have if anything increased in popularity. Strangely, you may think, I personally can take it or leave it - that is not the issue here.
I have tried to explain to you that a dress code in school is put unto motion after much agonising and consultation and at least you are not persisting now with your assertion that the rules are arbitrary -they most certainly are not! A child in school is part of a community which, after consultation, has agreed that this is what will be worn. I have explained to you the rationale for uniform, and its reasoning, and so it is quite reasonable to expect everyone to stick to it. That is NOT to say a child or anyone cannot question it - this often happens in schools - but at the proverbial end of the day, a punishment lies in wait for those who insist on flouting the rule. This is what happens in life. The scenario you portray is obviously your own obsession, but I do agree that if a rule is arbitrarily put in place, with no support of or merit to it, then simply to punish those who transgress is highly questionable. The communists in Russia dreamt up a rule that to criticise the state would be regarded as "anti-Soviet slander" and imprisonment would follow - this would certainly fall into your category.

 

[dingodan]

I was not at all sure of your first sentence -it does not make any sense? Traditionally schools have opted for a uniform to ensure that all children look the same, and it reinforces a sense of identity with the school, much the same that Albion's opponents tomorrow will arrive in club track suits. The system has lasted for a long time and the vast majority of folk working in schools seem to think this is a good idea, otherwise it would surely have been binned a long time ago -in fact as schools have moved to academy status, the idea of traditional uniform seems to have if anything increased in popularity. Strangely, you may think, I personally can take it or leave it - that is not the issue here.
I have tried to explain to you that a dress code in school is put unto motion after much agonising and consultation and at least you are not persisting now with your assertion that the rules are arbitrary -they most certainly are not! A child in school is part of a community which, after consultation, has agreed that this is what will be worn. I have explained to you the rationale for uniform, and its reasoning, and so it is quite reasonable to expect everyone to stick to it. That is NOT to say a child or anyone cannot question it - this often happens in schools - but at the proverbial end of the day, a punishment lies in wait for those who insist on flouting the rule. This is what happens in life. The scenario you portray is obviously your own obsession, but I do agree that if a rule is arbitrarily put in place, with no support of or merit to it, then simply to punish those who transgress is highly questionable. The communists in Russia dreamt up a rule that to criticise the state would be regarded as "anti-Soviet slander" and imprisonment would follow - this would certainly fall into your category.

I still think that you are getting things the wrong way around. You want kids to wear their uniforms, and wear them smartly and with pride. The means to achieve that is to run a good school which pupils are happy and proud to attend. You want them to feel integrated and feel a sense of community with the school and each other? Then foster that environment. I don't know all of the details about this case (or admittedly school administration in general) but I see a simple problem with a simple solution, and as usual the solution of choice for most people today is to regulate behavior using coercion and the threat of punishment or force.

The sad thing is that this head teacher might have some success, you might end up with a school full of pupils dressed according to code. How about that sense of identity with the school? mutual respect? sense of community? dignity? These things are completely neglected if all the kids are dressed correctly simply because they fear the wrath of the head teacher.

 

[Steve.S]

A lot of places in life have a dress code, there is a lot of self righteous crap on here. I do not know a school in this country that does not have open evenings and invites parents to have a look around and see what the school has to offer and what the ethos of the school is. Parents have a choice all be it limited in some cases. If you do not agree with the school uniform policy then either don't send your children to that school or if they are already in it take them out and put them into a school that better reflects your child's dress sense.

 

[Hastings gull]

I still think that you are getting things the wrong way around. You want kids to wear their uniforms, and wear them smartly and with pride. The means to achieve that is to run a good school which pupils are happy and proud to attend. You want them to feel integrated and feel a sense of community with the school and each other? Then foster that environment. I don't know all of the details about this case (or admittedly school administration in general) but I see a simple problem with a simple solution, and as usual the solution of choice for most people today is to regulate behavior using coercion and the threat of punishment or force.

The sad thing is that this head teacher might have some success, you might end up with a school full of pupils dressed according to code. How about that sense of identity with the school? mutual respect? sense of community? dignity? These things are completely neglected if all the kids are dressed correctly simply because they fear the wrath of the head teacher.

I do find this again rather muddled. Who says that the environment that we all desire is not fostered? Of course this needs to be done -this is why so many people are consulted with uniform and indeed this should happen before any rules are brought in -no one is quibbling with this. The last sentence in your first para - what are you getting at? What is the simple solution? And where is your evidence that most folk simply revert to coercion, or is this another unsubstantiated soundbite designed to lend a bit of credence to your view.
Your last para: as already explained to you, that is precisely the point of uniform -to create that sense of identity and community! Again, another sweeping statement that these things are all neglected - you have no evidence for this at all. The vast majority at the school did heed the rule and who is to say that they did it simply to avoid the wrath of the teacher. If I have been involved in the process, understand the reasoning, then I would happily wear something. If the minority did not, then it is to be expected that there would be consequences. This would happen with rules in many walks of life.

 

[dingodan]

I do find this again rather muddled. Who says that the environment that we all desire is not fostered? Of course this needs to be done -this is why so many people are consulted with uniform and indeed this should happen before any rules are brought in -no one is quibbling with this. The last sentence in your first para - what are you getting at? What is the simple solution? And where is your evidence that most folk simply revert to coercion, or is this another unsubstantiated soundbite designed to lend a bit of credence to your view.
Your last para: as already explained to you, that is precisely the point of uniform -to create that sense of identity and community! Again, another sweeping statement that these things are all neglected - you have no evidence for this at all. The vast majority at the school did heed the rule and who is to say that they did it simply to avoid the wrath of the teacher. If I have been involved in the process, understand the reasoning, then I would happily wear something. If the minority did not, then it is to be expected that there would be consequences. This would happen with rules in many walks of life.

To be fair, I can't think of a single rule that is necessary to be honest. If a rule exists for a good reason, then people will conform to it on it's merits, and the rule becomes unnecessary. Rules are only needed when you can't convince people to do what you want them to, and rules are by their very nature a form of coercion. Otherwise they would be suggestions, which I have to admit I prefer.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm very much in favour of the Australian summer dress type uniform, worn by 20 year-old actresses, playing schoolgirls in Home and Away, if this adds anything to the debate?

View attachment 59963

i think it adds a great deal, thank you for putting the case so eloquently.

 

[Hastings gull]

To be fair, I can't think of a single rule that is necessary to be honest. If a rule exists for a good reason, then people will conform to it on it's merits, and the rule becomes unnecessary. Rules are only needed when you can't convince people to do what you want them to, and rules are by their very nature a form of coercion. Otherwise they would be suggestions, which I have to admit I prefer.

You are showing your true colours -the unadulterated idealist! In theory you are of course quite right, but it does not conform to the realities of life. A 30 mph rule exists in built-up areas for a very good reason, which we would all surely accept, and therefore abide by on its merits - the same with not parking on double yellow lines, when it obscures the view that other motorists would have, and is thus dangerous. But the speed camera is there, as our every-day driving experience demonstrates, because many (can't give the exact percentage) motorists will not stick to it, and the fear of being fined and having points is the only thing that will deter - appeals by way of TV adverts to the dangers, do not, sadly. It is the same as with uniform - all agree to it and then some assume it does not apply to them, or simply could not care less. People do not necessarily conform to nice kind suggestions, even though they se the merit.
Looking at your piece again, with respect, is it not rather muddled? Initially, you say that you can't think of a single rule that is necessary. Then you prove what I am saying by confirming that rules are needed when people do not abide by them??

 

[The Spanish]

Can I ask you, for you is the question of having a uniform on the table? Because you describe involving kids in choosing what uniform they should have to wear, but I don't see a coherent or reasonable argument for the rule that a uniform must be worn in the first place. I don't actually have a problem with uniforms at all. I have a problem with expecting a young person to benefit from being taught that a rule must be obeyed without question, and obeyed not on it's merits and for it's sound reasoning, but obeyed for fear of the punishment which will be dished out if it is not obeyed. I think that an unhealthy lesson to teach.

But that does not mean I am saying throw out the uniforms. What I am saying is that if a uniform is in some way beneficial then just make the case. Just treat these students as the adults and human beings you hope for them to become.

The whole point of being a child is training for adulthood, treating them like the adults you hope for them to become is very foolish. Treat them like children, it's worked for generations, but our spoilt smart alecy society has decided childhood is some sort of massive gap year for some reason

 

[dingodan]

You are showing your true colours -the unadulterated idealist! In theory you are of course quite right, but it does not conform to the realities of life. A 30 mph rule exists in built-up areas for a very good reason, which we would all surely accept, and therefore abide by on its merits - the same with not parking on double yellow lines, when it obscures the view that other motorists would have, and is thus dangerous. But the speed camera is there, as our every-day driving experience demonstrates, because many (can't give the exact percentage) motorists will not stick to it, and the fear of being fined and having points is the only thing that will deter - appeals by way of TV adverts to the dangers, do not, sadly. It is the same as with uniform - all agree to it and then some assume it does not apply to them, or simply could not care less. People do not necessarily conform to nice kind suggestions, even though they se the merit.
Looking at your piece again, with respect, is it not rather muddled? Initially, you say that you can't think of a single rule that is necessary. Then you prove what I am saying by confirming that rules are needed when people do not abide by them??

I admit to a degree of idealism But my point is still valid. If someone is not obeying your rule try harder to make them understand why you want them too. Threatening a punishment is effectively giving up. Yes people don't always stick to the speed limit, and people die as a result. It is a terrible irresponsible thing to do to drive at excessive speeds. But notice that we do have speed limits, and it still happens. Because speed limits and other such rules never made anybody a good decent person, and they never will.

When I said that, "rules are only needed when you can't convince people to do what you want them to" - I wasn't suggesting that rules are needed. I was suggesting that rules are the province of those who have failed to convince, and have given up trying.

 

[dingodan]

The whole point of being a child is training for adulthood, treating them like the adults you hope for them to become is very foolish. Treat them like children, it's worked for generations, but our spoilt smart alecy society has decided childhood is some sort of massive gap year for some reason

Not sure it has.

I think children should have discipline and rules. But I see those as being personal things which have to develop in an individual. You must develop discipline, but nobody can give you discipline, they can only take obedience.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I'm very much in favour of the Australian summer dress type uniform, worn by 20 year-old actresses, playing schoolgirls in Home and Away, if this adds anything to the debate?

View attachment 59963

I agree and am very much in favour of it too. Unfortunately, i haven't still got the legs to carry it off

 

[TonyW]

It has been unlawful in this country for quite a while now to try to enforce school uniform in state-funded schools.
Hopefully this deluded moron will be seeking new employment in the very near future.

 

[Hastings gull]

Not sure it has.

I think children should have discipline and rules. But I see those as being personal things which have to develop in an individual. You must develop discipline, but nobody can give you discipline, they can only take obedience.

You are quite right in that discipline has to come from within eventually, but you cannot expect young immature minds to have this automatically - they develop once they are shown by adults what is right and what is wrong, and yes, that dreadful word -punishment - will help people to develop their own discipline.

 

[dingodan]

but you cannot expect young immature minds to have this automatically

Nor can you expect them to develop it through rules and punishments. In order to take responsibility, it must first be available to take.

and yes, that dreadful word -punishment - will help people to develop their own discipline.

Punishment does not develop discipline, it develops obedience. A sense of self respect and personal responsibility develop discipline, and coercion and threats of punishment only serve to undermine those things.

 

[Hastings gull]

Nor can you expect them to develop it through rules and punishments. In order to take responsibility, it must first be available to take.



Punishment does not develop discipline, it develops obedience. A sense of self respect and personal responsibility develop discipline, and coercion and threats of punishment only serve to undermine those things.

Of course punishment on it is own and in isolation does not develop discipline, and will encourage obedience. But there are times when punishment will cause someone to reflect on their behaviour and we hope change things for the better and develop their own self-discipline. We all at times need a kick up the you know where - left to our own devices, we do not always show self-discipline. Why is this so hard for you to accept?