Give this head Teacher a 'medal'.

[Cian]

Uniformity in dress reinforces those values

How, precisely?

Same gibberish line is given constantly with zero proof. Uniforms do nothing for discipline, or "corps d'esprit" as has become the modern excuse for them. All they do is give something for authoritarians in the education system to have a point to prove over. Every pupil resents the damn things meaning they cause ill discipline and the exact opposite of pride and the various other facets we're told they do.

Any future kids of mine will be going to schools that pay attention to important stuff and not uniforms - whether that involves paying for their education or not. It really is a horrendous legacy concept we've been left to deal with.

 

[Wilko]

I feel that this is rather simplistic and am not at all sure that you are doing teenagers a favour by emphasising individuality. Of course you can learn with any type of haircut etc but at some stage we all have to comply with what we are asked to do, even if we do not agree -then comes the test for a pupil schooled in individualism. Another post asked where you teach and I noticed an address in Nairobi -are you in a British comprehensive, we wonder or an expensive private school?

I teach in a British International school in Nairobi but also help out at a primary school in a slum. In both cases I feel that education is the most important thing, not how they dress.

 

[Wilko]

Do you teach in a nice school?

It is a nice school in Nairobi, yes.

 

[nwgull]

It is a nice school in Nairobi, yes.

That does make a difference. Kids in rough areas or from unfortunate backgrounds really respond well to being put in uniform. It makes them feel like they belong, and they like having clear boundaries set regarding how they're expected to dress (as well as general behaviour). It's like flicking a switch for them from how they behave home to how they behave at school.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Uniforms are important. Children need order and discipline. Uniformity in dress reinforces those values which a lot of parents seem incapable of instilling their offspring with, today.

Individuality can be expressed in many different ways, not just through dress.

Agree with this...uniforms instill discipline,just imagine if policemen.fire brigade or indeed the armed forces dressed as they pleased.
If school children want to express their individualism they can do it out of school hours.
Been such a long time,but do they still have assembly at schools ?

 

[Hastings gull]

I thought so. After 30 years in teaching, I have heard the comments you make so many times, invariably from those who do not teach at the coal face in a comprehensive -we wonder why. You can argue that education is important AND feel that dress matters, you know -think about what can happen in places of work. I assume your last comment about helping out at a slum primary school was because you knew what we were thinking!

 

[soistes]

I do understand some of the arguments in favour of school uniforms - respect, marking borderline between home and school, ironing out differences between rich and poor pupils etc etc.

However, it's also worth noting that some of the countries which seem to achieve uniformly good (no pun intended) educational outcomes, like Finland which is always at or near the top of international league tables, with a very good state system (and virtually no private schools), seem to manage perfectly ok without such uniforms and restrictions on appearance etc.

As a parent (of now grown up kids) I would far rather have just supported their schooling through encouraging their studies etc, rather than also having to engage with the almost daily battles to get reluctant teenagers to wear a uniform they hated - yes it's a trivial thing (a point I made regularly), but these things loom large for teenagers and make school seem in their immature eyes like a place of control and oppression rather than something more positive.

 

[Hastings gull]

I do understand some of the arguments in favour of school uniforms - respect, marking borderline between home and school, ironing out differences between rich and poor pupils etc etc.

However, it's also worth noting that some of the countries which seem to achieve uniformly good (no pun intended) educational outcomes, like Finland which is always at or near the top of international league tables, with a very good state system (and virtually no private schools), seem to manage perfectly ok without such uniforms and restrictions on appearance etc.

As a parent (of now grown up kids) I would far rather have just supported their schooling through encouraging their studies etc, rather than also having to engage with the almost daily battles to get reluctant teenagers to wear a uniform they hated - yes it's a trivial thing (a point I made regularly), but these things loom large for teenagers and make school seem in their immature eyes like a place of control and oppression rather than something more positive.

I see your point about other systems -my experience is with Germany, where they too have no uniform. I lived there for 25 years and visited classrooms with British pupils, who looked at me to take action when German pupils openly swore in class. But my experience is also such that I would always take with a pinch of salt claims that one system is good as it is top of an international league table. It is very difficult to compare and it is human nature to, shall we say, embellish the figures, knowing they your system will be judged!
You are clearly a committed parent and I don't doubt that it was hard to fight the good fight on uniform. But the fact is that you DID back up the school, and teenagers will respect that. Yes, they will try to get round it -we all did- though I think your use of words such as oppression is rather extreme -most teenagers would not see it quite in those terms. Forgive me if I am being intrusive, but I would imagine that your grown-up children are now good citizens, given the odd foible to which we are all prone, precisely because you demonstrated that there were parameters, which is a good lesson in life.

 

[BigGully]

I do understand some of the arguments in favour of school uniforms - respect, marking borderline between home and school, ironing out differences between rich and poor pupils etc etc.

However, it's also worth noting that some of the countries which seem to achieve uniformly good (no pun intended) educational outcomes, like Finland which is always at or near the top of international league tables, with a very good state system (and virtually no private schools), seem to manage perfectly ok without such uniforms and restrictions on appearance etc.

As a parent (of now grown up kids) I would far rather have just supported their schooling through encouraging their studies etc, rather than also having to engage with the almost daily battles to get reluctant teenagers to wear a uniform they hated - yes it's a trivial thing (a point I made regularly), but these things loom large for teenagers and make school seem in their immature eyes like a place of control and oppression rather than something more positive.

Do you honestly think the majority of those pupils and parents that wouldn't adhere to the school policy of wearing the school uniform are dong it out of some deeper educational freedom of expression reason ?

Half them couldnt be arsed with most aspects of their educational experience whilst the other half just want to battle with a school which they probably see as an establishment that impose stuff on them, exclusions, detentions, parent meetings for unacceptable behaviour and so on.

The ones that have a viable argument, probably turn up with their correct uniform and discuss the merits of it policy whilst their parents accept that the school needs to be supported in its efforts to encourage a greater level of discipline throughout the school.

The genuine freedom some are misguidedly saying non compliance might deliver can only really be expressed when you leave school educated with qualified, which will take some level of encouraged discipline.

 

[dingodan]

Lesson One: Obedience.

Sad imo.

 

[Hastings gull]

Lesson One: Obedience.

Sad imo.

It would be better to offer something constructive, I feel. Obedience is a very cynical way of looking at the issue, which is one of asking young people to stay within parameters, which they will need for future life, like it or not. Of course they will kick at it -we all did - but that does not make the parameters wrong. Most young people show respect for precisely those teachers, who enforce rules, provided it is done fairly and consistently. Sniping about obedience really offers very little to the debate.

 

[soistes]

I see your point about other systems -my experience is with Germany, where they too have no uniform. I lived there for 25 years and visited classrooms with British pupils, who looked at me to take action when German pupils openly swore in class. But my experience is also such that I would always take with a pinch of salt claims that one system is good as it is top of an international league table. It is very difficult to compare and it is human nature to, shall we say, embellish the figures, knowing they your system will be judged!
You are clearly a committed parent and I don't doubt that it was hard to fight the good fight on uniform. But the fact is that you DID back up the school, and teenagers will respect that. Yes, they will try to get round it -we all did- though I think your use of words such as oppression is rather extreme -most teenagers would not see it quite in those terms. Forgive me if I am being intrusive, but I would imagine that your grown-up children are now good citizens, given the odd foible to which we are all prone, precisely because you demonstrated that there were parameters, which is a good lesson in life.

I largely agree, and yes my kids have turned out alright (although I would say that, wouldn't I...?). And I absolutely agree about setting boundaries etc; however, I still feel in retrospect that, given the choice, I'd much rather have spent my time and emotional energy setting those boundaries (where it was necessary to do so) around things which had some intrinsic (in my view) importance. That's to say, in the specific school context -- working hard, doing homework when set, turning up on time etc; and in a broader context, having respect and consideration for others in behaviour, having a sensible approach to drugs and alcohol, contributing to the household by pulling their weight in domestic chores etc. Of course you're right that "oppression" is clearly an over-the-top expression for these kinds of school rules like uniform when seen through adult eyes, but nevertheless many adolescents feel that they are oppressive and, in my view, having such rules just makes it harder for the school to enforce behaviour boundaries that really are important, because the kids simply bracket them all together, and reason that "if they make such a fuss about something as trivial as uniform, then why should I take them seriously on X,Y,Z?". Interestingly, I recently had a discussion with my own father, now in his 80s, who felt the same way -- he remembered the battles he'd fought with me in the early 70s to enforce school bans on shoulder-length hair, Doctor Martens or whatever, and wished he'd not had to fight them, because it led to unnecessary stress at home, and led to me dismissing other strictures he laid down at the time (which with hindsight, of course, now seem perfectly reasonable...).

On your point about other systems, I beg to differ. Yes, the league tables are suspect in some ways (having said that, the superiority of some systems like the Finnish seems to come through in rigorous independent comparisons), but the point is there are loads of European countries who seem to manage to produce a young adult population that is at least as well-educated and socially integrated as ours (if not more so) without insisting on school uniforms.

 

[Hastings gull]

I largely agree, and yes my kids have turned out alright (although I would say that, wouldn't I...?). And I absolutely agree about setting boundaries etc; however, I still feel in retrospect that, given the choice, I'd much rather have spent my time and emotional energy setting those boundaries (where it was necessary to do so) around things which had some intrinsic (in my view) importance. That's to say, in the specific school context -- working hard, doing homework when set, turning up on time etc; and in a broader context, having respect and consideration for others in behaviour, having a sensible approach to drugs and alcohol, contributing to the household by pulling their weight in domestic chores etc. Of course you're right that "oppression" is clearly an over-the-top expression for these kinds of school rules like uniform when seen through adult eyes, but nevertheless many adolescents feel that they are oppressive and, in my view, having such rules just makes it harder for the school to enforce behaviour boundaries that really are important, because the kids simply bracket them all together, and reason that "if they make such a fuss about something as trivial as uniform, then why should I take them seriously on X,Y,Z?". Interestingly, I recently had a discussion with my own father, now in his 80s, who felt the same way -- he remembered the battles he'd fought with me in the early 70s to enforce school bans on shoulder-length hair, Doctor Martens or whatever, and wished he'd not had to fight them, because it led to unnecessary stress at home, and led to me dismissing other strictures he laid down at the time (which with hindsight, of course, now seem perfectly reasonable...).

On your point about other systems, I beg to differ. Yes, the league tables are suspect in some ways (having said that, the superiority of some systems like the Finnish seems to come through in rigorous independent comparisons), but the point is there are loads of European countries who seem to manage to produce a young adult population that is at least as well-educated and socially integrated as ours (if not more so) without insisting on school uniforms.

Thanks for this and yes, we are in a large measure of agreement. Of course we look back and think what a pain it was to convince young people that uniform was necessary, but we set standards that has served them well in later life, and surely then it makes it worth it in the long run, as you and your father say. My parents said the same about me insisting on wearing a parka with Albion painted on the back! I am not sure that young people in general do bracket all rules together but accept that this could be the case in your family -I would not presume to question that. Throughout my teaching career I can genuinely say that whilst young people tried to scruff up school uniform, I did not detect large-scale opposition to the principle.

I have often pondered this about how schools abroad produce good citizens without the need for school uniform, and you are of course right to question this. It is difficult to compare cultures, however. In Germany, teachers just come into school, teach and leave - a bit crude, I realise, but there is not the pastoral care of pupils to the same extent that we take for granted here, and they do not stay all day in school, so school is not the important factor in shaping pupils that it is here, rightly or wrongly. Parents are liable in Germany for their children's behaviour and so parameters are less likely to be set in school. Of course German teachers insist on decent behaviour but seem to eg accept back-chat far more than here. Plus, in Germany the rules are far more strictly enforced than here - verboten really means precisely that! Discipline is taken away from schools there, but enforced at home, in theory, and certainly in public.

I have seen many such surveys over the years, and am very dubious as to them. I am NOT trying to be dramatic, but have to be very careful as to what I write about how it is easy to skew the statistics in education. That is not to say that I doubt the Finnish system, or what you write necessarily, just that I know what can happen when you are under pressure to produce stats, that are then used to judge you in the public domain.

 

[keaton]

Could the parents whose children went to that school who wanted term-time holiday just send the head a letter saying "Unfortunately my child's school shoes are broken leaving them with only with black trainers for a week's so she won't be in till then"?

 

[Wilko]

That does make a difference. Kids in rough areas or from unfortunate backgrounds really respond well to being put in uniform. It makes them feel like they belong, and they like having clear boundaries set regarding how they're expected to dress (as well as general behaviour). It's like flicking a switch for them from how they behave home to how they behave at school.

I should elaborate a little. If a school does have a uniform then fine but if the pupils want to add their own individuality through pink socks, a colourful bracelet, a non conservative hairstyle or the odd ear-ring then I really do not see how this impacts their education. My main issue is that so much teacher and pupil time and energy is spent on the pedantic regulation of uniform that it can often distract from the real issue at hand - learning!

 

[Hastings gull]

I should elaborate a little. If a school does have a uniform then fine but if the pupils want to add their own individuality through pink socks, a colourful bracelet, a non conservative hairstyle or the odd ear-ring then I really do not see how this impacts their education. My main issue is that so much teacher and pupil time and energy is spent on the pedantic regulation of uniform that it can often distract from the real issue at hand - learning!

Thanks you for your reply -appreciated. I think, with respect, that you are being rather naïve. If a school has uniform, then as you well know, it will have been through school council, staff meetings, parental letters and governor's approval. The vast majority will stick to it, as this is what was agreed. Then comes that little darling who, invariably with either parental support or parental ignorance of what the school is trying to do, decides that the rules do not apply to him/her. Of course, the colour of your socks does not affect your learning, as you rightly state, but that is NOT the issue. There is nothing more morale-sapping for the majority who abide by the rule and see that an individual is getting away with it. Of course it is a pain getting kids to stick to the rules on uniform but that does not kame the rules wrong -what is wrong is then to move away from your rule, simply to appease those who have no intention of following it. Adding individuality is of course not wrong, but it has to be in the right context, surely.

 

[Wilko]

I thought so. After 30 years in teaching, I have heard the comments you make so many times, invariably from those who do not teach at the coal face in a comprehensive -we wonder why. You can argue that education is important AND feel that dress matters, you know -think about what can happen in places of work. I assume your last comment about helping out at a slum primary school was because you knew what we were thinking!

I have taught in rough comp in Portsmouth, a middle class comp in Dorking, a 6th form college in Lewes (with no uniform), a private school in Nairobi and a slum in Nairobi. Therefore I think I have enough experience to give my view. The school in Portsmouth spent so much time worrying about ties being done up correctly and shirts tucked in that they changed the uniform to polo shirt and no tie, it saved hours of time, arguments and detentions.

 

[Wilko]

Thanks you for your reply -appreciated. I think, with respect, that you are being rather naïve. If a school has uniform, then as you well know, it will have been through school council, staff meetings, parental letters and governor's approval. The vast majority will stick to it, as this is what was agreed. Then comes that little darling who, invariably with either parental support or parental ignorance of what the school is trying to do, decides that the rules do not apply to him/her. Of course, the colour of your socks does not affect your learning, as you rightly state, but that is NOT the issue. There is nothing more morale-sapping for the majority who abide by the rule and see that an individual is getting away with it. Of course it is a pain getting kids to stick to the rules on uniform but that does not kame the rules wrong -what is wrong is then to move away from your rule, simply to appease those who have no intention of following it. Adding individuality is of course not wrong, but it has to be in the right context, surely.

I agree that if there is a uniform policy you should follow it. I am arguing that some of the arbitrary rules should not be there in the first place. Interesting discussion btw, good to hear opinions from others.

 

[dingodan]

It would be better to offer something constructive, I feel. Obedience is a very cynical way of looking at the issue, which is one of asking young people to stay within parameters, which they will need for future life, like it or not. Of course they will kick at it -we all did - but that does not make the parameters wrong. Most young people show respect for precisely those teachers, who enforce rules, provided it is done fairly and consistently. Sniping about obedience really offers very little to the debate.

Exactly. I would have preferred a different approach, like for example, an assembly meeting in which the benefits of a tidy well present school uniform are exalted, a genuine effort made to convince using ideas and arguments. I would imagine, especially with young students, a healthy constructive discussion would ensue.

Being well presented and looking after yourself is a matter of self and mutual respect, however being well presented and looking after yourself is an indication of self and mutual respect, it is not the means by which it is achieved. Self/mutual respect should be encouraged to achieve a population of well presented & respectful students, rather than expecting a rule and a uniform to achieve it.

I don't see that uniformity is beneficial to learning in any meaningful way, and it's enforcement as an arbitrary rule to be obeyed likely undermines the very self/mutual respect which should be encouraged.

In general the idea of teaching obedience to kids makes me cringe. I tend to have more hope for the kid who will defy a stupid rule than for the kid who will obey one.

 

[Hastings gull]

I have taught in rough comp in Portsmouth, a middle class comp in Dorking, a 6th form college in Lewes (with no uniform), a private school in Nairobi and a slum in Nairobi. Therefore I think I have enough experience to give my view. The school in Portsmouth spent so much time worrying about ties being done up correctly and shirts tucked in that they changed the uniform to polo shirt and no tie, it saved hours of time, arguments and detentions.

Thank you for your response and I apologise if I have maligned your teaching experience. With the greatest respect, I still think you are missing the point - yes, the school may have decided to change the rules as it was a pain to enforce and switched to something else. That is fine. The point is, however, they switched to something that presumably had a greater degree of agreement, after much consultation, and as such pupils and parents are then expected to stick to it. The type of uniform is irrelevant to the thread - the issue is that with whatever is agreed, then must be for all -not for the majority of pupils minus a minority who want to show individualism. This is what that Head rightly objected to. There is, afterall, much opportunity outside of school for young -and old -people to express individualism in their dress, and good luck to them.