"Get Britain Out of the EU" says the Daily Express Special Edition

[Lincoln Imp]

Weird argument about the UK's identity given that the Parliament has a majority SNP leadership. Then again the SNP are anti-union in the UK but would embrace union with the EU.

As for your view that those who are anti EU are just "nasty" I mean please.................and yet I bet you think you are liberal minded? Evidently there are people in this country who have small moustaches and shiny shoes who have a visceral distrust of those who do not share there own views.

You and Peterward both misquote me. Whilst I accept that there are plenty of people - you two perhaps - who have reasoned arguments against the EU I stand by my view that the most common argument against the EU is that it is just a bunch of bloody foreigners trying to order us around. The person who coined the phrase about Englishmen automatically disliking foreigners with small moustaches and shiny shoes was a Conservative Eurosceptic.

The fact that the SNP is alive and well in 2011 actually reinforces my view that a political union needn't destroy national pride and identity. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[peterward]

You and Peterward both misquote me. Whilst I accept that there are plenty of people - you two perhaps - who have reasoned arguments against the EU I stand by my view that the most common argument against the EU is that it is just a bunch of bloody foreigners trying to order us around. The person who coined the phrase about Englishmen automatically disliking foreigners with small moustaches and shiny shoes was a Conservative Eurosceptic.

The fact that the SNP is alive and well in 2011 actually reinforces my view that a political union needn't destroy national pride and identity. Thanks for pointing it out.

The title of this thread is about the Daily Express....... and I would agree with you, they and the Daily Mail are very small minded 'little Britain' anti foreigner rags.

But I actually think many people who think the EU has gone way beyond its remit in trying to force through full integration, do so from from an objective and informed view rather than being anti foreigner...... I couldn't care less who is in this Sovereign nation, if they are legally allowed. But I do care about this Sovereign nation remaining just that.

 

[cunning fergus]

You and Peterward both misquote me. Whilst I accept that there are plenty of people - you two perhaps - who have reasoned arguments against the EU I stand by my view that the most common argument against the EU is that it is just a bunch of bloody foreigners trying to order us around. The person who coined the phrase about Englishmen automatically disliking foreigners with small moustaches and shiny shoes was a Conservative Eurosceptic.

The fact that the SNP is alive and well in 2011 actually reinforces my view that a political union needn't destroy national pride and identity. Thanks for pointing it out.

Well, now you put it like that, frankly I don't want any foreigners ordering the UK around. If that is someone's perception of the EU surely it is completely understandable why many people have concerns. I can only assume that you do want the UK to be ordered about by foreigners?

Notwithstanding your own desires for this country, the nub of this particular matter for the wider electorate is of course is whether their perception is a reality? Do (for example) unelected foreigners make laws that this country has to adopt? For example if UK courts or elected politicans make a decision under the UK's legal and/or political system is this decision final or is it then subject to foreign interference/arbitration.

As I understand it the European Courts are now the final destination for legal matters and (regardless of whether you think the decison the European Courts make is right or wrong) they have the power to overturn a decision made by a democratically elected Government and or its own legal system. I am no legal expert, but the proposition here is that the UK's position is now subservient to an higher entity which is not even based in the UK.

In laymans terms, this means a bunch of bloody foreigners are ordering us around..........................or something like that.

I agree about Scotland, their identity is strong enough that they have elected a Party whose primary policy is to withdraw from the Union...............why should the broader UK electorates be any different about our relationship with another union?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Well, now you put it like that, frankly I don't want any foreigners ordering the UK around. If that is someone's perception of the EU surely it is completely understandable why many people have concerns. I can only assume that you do want the UK to be ordered about by foreigners?

Notwithstanding your own desires for this country, the nub of this particular matter for the wider electorate is of course is whether their perception is a reality? Do (for example) unelected foreigners make laws that this country has to adopt? For example if UK courts or elected politicans make a decision under the UK's legal and/or political system is this decision final or is it then subject to foreign interference/arbitration.

As I understand it the European Courts are now the final destination for legal matters and (regardless of whether you think the decison the European Courts make is right or wrong) they have the power to overturn a decision made by a democratically elected Government and or its own legal system. I am no legal expert, but the proposition here is that the UK's position is now subservient to an higher entity which is not even based in the UK.

In laymans terms, this means a bunch of bloody foreigners are ordering us around..........................or something like that.

I agree about Scotland, their identity is strong enough that they have elected a Party whose primary policy is to withdraw from the Union...............why should the broader UK electorates be any different about our relationship with another union?

This is in danger of turning into a reasoned debate.

Two small points if I may.

The European Court you mention has nothing to do with the EU - I believe the only country that has ever withdrawn from its influence was Greece, just after a group of colonels set up a dictatorship. Teresa May was playing to the gallery when she made her cat speech, happy to fib in the knowledge that nothing will rouse a Tory conference as well as an attack on foreigners. I confess to a real dislike of the Johnny Foreigner tactic and suspect that it is often used by cynical British politicians looking for a cheer.

The UK is a union vastly more rigid and controlling than the EU and it was the overwhelming power of Westminster that has given rise to the growth of the SNP. Nothing as 'ambitious' as the British Union has ever been proposed for Europe, which is why most countries are happy to be part of the latter. My only point was that if Scottish nationalism can survive the UK then British nationalism can certainly survive the much looser EU.

 

[Soton Seagull]

I understand the sovereignty issue and the fears of the EU overstepping it's remit. That said, as our main trade is with Europe it makes sense to be a part of it and have some influence rather than sitting outside and looking through the window and having to abide by the rules for trade purposes anyway.

The EU is far from ideal; but it & it's predecessors best accomplishment is surely locking countries together economically to such a degree that the thought of armed conflict between any of the nations seems almost unthinkable. We really don't have to go back far in history for a time when that wasn't the case.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

But for most people arguing against the EU is just a cover for a visceral distrust of foreigners, particularly those with 'shiny shoes and small moustaches'. It's the political equivalent of standing up if you hate Palace. And it's nasty.

Until that point your posts appeared well argued and intelligent even if I didn't agree with them. Now you just look like an idiot. I enjoy holidaying in Europe and have many European friends - I do not have a distrust of foreigners - I distruct the corrupt EU structure.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Until that point your posts appeared well argued and intelligent even if I didn't agree with them. Now you just look like an idiot. I enjoy holidaying in Europe and have many European friends - I do not have a distrust of foreigners - I distruct the corrupt EU structure.

Yes, I did get a bit overwrought at the end didn't I?

In fairness though, I have said in a previous post that there are good arguments against the EU but that, in my view, most people's criticisms are based on a simple distrust of foreigners. Teresa May is just the latest of a thousand politicians to understand that.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

This shows you have no grasp of the economic issue. To join the single currency we would have to fix, or "Gerrymander"as you put it, our exchange rate to the Ecu permanently. This was tried by major when we joined the ERM. And failed spectacularly because our economy is to different. Its syncronised to the US/world economy.

Fox et al call for a floating exchange rate, that adjusts to the countries relative value. That is the opposite of gerrymandering.

Oh and good luck with your identity crisis, I have no such problems.

The trouble is, countries employ a floating currency as an alternative to being more efficient, working harder, exporting more and consuming less. Allow the currency to drift and you don't have break into a sweat. Working harder (etc) and keeping your currency strong is tougher. It's a choice really. An economy like Germany's. Or one like ours.

Oh, and I really didn't realise I had an identity crisis. I thought the opposite was true. But thanks for your good wishes!

 

[looney]

The trouble is, countries employ a floating currency as an alternative to being more efficient, working harder, exporting more and consuming less. Allow the currency to drift and you don't have break into a sweat. Working harder (etc) and keeping your currency strong is tougher. It's a choice really. An economy like Germany's. Or one like ours.

Oh, and I really didn't realise I had an identity crisis. I thought the opposite was true. But thanks for your good wishes!

Eh?

Dont know where you get this from. Floating currencies are there to maintain Purchasing Price Parity, OK thats a longterm theory but risks are removed by futures and forward markets. The main argument agaist is the risk of competative devaluations but that is flawed due to inflationary effects.