This is probably the most succinct summary I've read as to why being in government (any colour) is something of an impossible task. I don't know what the answer is but if we, as a society, expect government and the taxpayer to do everything we individually think is important or our own priority we are simply setting up every government to fail and in turn so will our society and arguably so it is.
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[Politics] General Election 2024 - 4th July
- Thread starter Bozza
- Start date
This is probably the most succinct summary I've read as to why being in government (any colour) is something of an impossible task. I don't know what the answer is but if we, as a society, expect government and the taxpayer to do everything we individually think is important or our own priority we are simply setting up every government to fail and in turn so will our society and arguably so it is.
I think, like most things in life, we have to learn to accept imperfection. If a Starmer government significantly reduces the housing crisis, food/heat poverty and NHS waits, improves public transport options for the many, whilst not harming UK’s business standing internationally (multinationals HQ’s don’t depart) …. imho that would be an impressive term.
Completley agree. But we have to do something collectively on the big bits, NHS, cost of living, school places (a local issue) and environmental/energy (why don't we all have heat pumps for example reducing use of gas) . To my mind its getting my local long standing Tory out, removing the rot and trying something new. If each of us try closer to home by doing our bit, then ensuring our local MP is actually representing what we want, surely thats a good start (or an idealistic rose tinted glasses view I will hang on to
).... Deciding what the big bits are though I guess is your point...
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
It’s all in the reporting and context. The Green Party are decrying the headlines.
Labour denies abandoning £28bn green pledge
Labour says it plans to 'ramp up' investment in its green plan, but the policy has already been watered down.www.bbc.co.uk
Not sure if I respect labour for a (alleged) determination to stick to fiscal rules or to take this as a warning that their pre election promises will as likely to be fulfilled as the Tories are to become full of integrity and honesty. But overalI found this story quite depressing
Your last point exactly and I would agree that environment/energy is a big bit. But as someone who has been involved in renewables for many years I would )regrettably) say that heat pumps are not a big bit of the answer - they will work for some but for most they are impractical (you need a very large garden). expensive and actually dont create the heat expected. We all know that one of the biggest hits would be to massively reduce air travel. But if any gov introduced, say, a £500 tax on short haul flights this would cause total outrage but would probably be effective. So whilst we may agree on what the big hits are can anyone ever agree on the solutions?Completley agree. But we have to do something collectively on the big bits, NHS, cost of living, school places (a local issue) and environmental/energy (why don't we all have heat pumps for example reducing use of gas) . To my mind its getting my local long standing Tory out, removing the rot and trying something new. If each of us try closer to home by doing our bit, then ensuring our local MP is actually representing what we want, surely thats a good start (or an idealistic rose tinted glasses view I will hang on to
Machiavelli
Well-known member
The most depressing yet bleedingly obvious thing about this report is that back in the 1960s there was parity in political engagement between those in different categories of wealth. In the 1960s, the inequality range was low and narrowing on a clear trajectory. Subsequently it's high, growing and on a clear trajectory. And look what happens as a result:
www.theguardian.com
Next UK election set to be most unequal in 60 years, study finds
Voter turnout gap between top and bottom earners growing since 60s, says IPPR thinktank
www.theguardian.com
Even weirder, it looks like the Tories are targeting the lower end of the income scale and taking the upper class vote for granted, leaving Labour to pillage the middle class vote just as the SNP are imploding in Scotland, which, to be fair, will never, ever vote Tory.The most depressing yet bleedingly obvious thing about this report is that back in the 1960s there was parity in political engagement between those in different categories of wealth. In the 1960s, the inequality range was low and narrowing on a clear trajectory. Subsequently it's high, growing and on a clear trajectory. And look what happens as a result:
Next UK election set to be most unequal in 60 years, study finds
Voter turnout gap between top and bottom earners growing since 60s, says IPPR thinktank
It might be sad that voter turn out is lower in the demographics mentioned (though I'd be cautious about anything coming from the IPPR which has an agenda every bit as much as Tufton St does) but it's how those demographics vote, when they do, that's just as worrying. Somewhere like Barnsley would have been solidly behind Scargill and the Miners Strike in the 80s. Now they're being courted by neo-fascists after an eight year diet of divisive referendum, immigrant blaming and the idiotic populist bluster of people like 30p Lee.
nicko31
Well-known member
The Tories have been incredibly successful at convincing the intellectually challenged to vote against their own interests.
I notice the Murdoch press praising Farage today after I'm a Celeb, you can see where the next phase is heading....
He wasn't at their conference dancing with Pritti Patel for nothing.
If he joins the Tories, gets elected and becomes leader I genuinely hope the One Nation brigade (and there's still quite a lot) leave and start something new. That might risk clogging up the centre ground but I can't ever see a genuinely far right, one agenda party winning a FTPT election.
nicko31
Well-known member
The Tory right seem convinced the hard / far right strategy has worked in the US for Republicans by picking on key issues. But her we don't have guns and abortion.
Labour have a great opportunity just like they did in the late 90's, its theirs to screw up
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,419
It's all talk. If he was to join the party he'd need to get himself selected to fight a safe Tory seat at the next election. The problem there is that:
1) Tory Central Office under Sunak will not do him any favours to get on a list; and
2) A safe Tory seats at the next election? https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
Safe enough to accept a divisive candidate with seven previous general election defeats and no wins on his record?
The Tory party is broken and the Tory press is flailing around, imagining every unlikely scenario that may just stave off a wipe out. 'What if we got Farage?' 'What if we got Johnson back?' 'Were we too hasty with Truss?' 'Does anybody like Braverman?'
Thatcher's shadow still looms large and they're like Man Utd fans in search of the next new manager who's still not Ferguson. Farage is the equivalent of them appointing Roy Keane: Excites the bullish, but isn't going to happen.
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That's an excellent analogy!
Machiavelli
Well-known member
Similar things have gone on elsewhere in deindustrialised zones, eg northern France, the rust belt. Do note that there's a vision and hope that's driving said public behind these agendas. That's in stark contrast to the centrist agenda which basically says, have this because nothing else is possible -- and it's hardly surprising that so many are flocking away from that message.
So there's a revived right and a vanishing, delusional centre. The left is yet to effectively regroup around a message or project that can inspire suitable numbers to get behind it. And this is why politics is in such a dire condition, and unpleasant agendas abound.
In stark contrast to the previous post, the one thing that you can pretty much guarantee is that the Tories won't implode. They've been around for over 300 years, and their overriding view during this time is that -- whatever the differences within a coalition -- they can protect their interests from within power/government much better than from without.
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nicko31
Well-known member
Rothermere's latest take...
www.dailymail.co.uk
'Dream ticket' of Johnson and Farage mooted by some Tory MPs
A group of Tory MPs who 'regret' ousting Boris Johnson are behind an extraordinary bid to bring him back in the hope of saving the election.
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,419
More magical thinking from the extreme right. Johnson's also not an MP, so they'd need to find two tories in safe seats willing to make way. He'll also be done no favours by the current leadership. They despise him. Had he not resigned as MP for Uxbridge, the ethics committee would have imposed a ninety day suspension for deliberately misleading parliament, which would have been enough to spark a recall. As his resignation stopped the committee from making the recommendation, he wouldn't automatically face a suspension if elected, but I'm sure that the matter would be raised again.Rothermere's latest take...
'Dream ticket' of Johnson and Farage mooted by some Tory MPs
A group of Tory MPs who 'regret' ousting Boris Johnson are behind an extraordinary bid to bring him back in the hope of saving the election.
Not to mention that Johnson and Farage wouldn't even work together when they were both campaigning for Brexit. It's easy enough to imagine these supergroups, but they always fall apart due to the egos of those involved. First Farage would want a twenty minute solo, then Johnson would insist on a priceless Persian rug to stand on while he gives his speeches. Truss would be travelling with her own karate instructor. Cameron, having left Sunak's supergroup to join, would then leave again to form Avid and the Ominoes. They'd then have to bring Cleverly in just because his name starts with the same letter as Cameron's. Within no time they'd all insist on travelling on separate buses and it would all fall apart when one of them, probably Gove, gets imprisoned in Texas on drugs and weapons charges. (Points for all the references).
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Such an arrogant viewpoint!
I haven't bothered to look at any manifesto, partly for the reasons you explain. The media has over the years become obsessed about what is an aspiration and what is a commitment, knowing full well that all of it is an aspiration (unless a party is so foolhardy that they will collapse the building just to fulfill a promise to touch a ceiling that is out of reach). But if it isn't a 'commitment' then the media will call it a hollow promise by a party that can't be trusted.
I'm going to vote based on my what I think I understand about the lay of the land, plus my prejudices which are fully loaded now in favour of Labour and against the toryshambles.
A rather succinct explanation of Truss's time as PM...
Yep. We have seen very strange things these last few years. All of it growing from the tainted pot called 'we have voted to leave the EU', and resulting from the determination of a sufficient number of madmen (and women), led by Johnson and Gove, to water whatever is in that pot and have it grow. And look what has happened.