General Election 2017

[FIVESTEPS]

Jezzas failed to turn up for a poster launch,doesn't want to face the media after leaked manifesto.

 

[knocky1]

And I wouldn't expect anything less.

Socialist government is riddled with corruption on an unprecedented scale, they run a command economy but fail to diversify and get it spectacularly wrong, replace democracy with a dictatorship and it's the fault of capitalism. Strange how the Brazilian and Mexican economies haven't tanked so spectacularly.

Oil in Venezuela accounts for 95% of exports and 50% of GDP. In Mexico oil is 10% of exports. It's historic failure to invest domestically. This could not have been changed overnight with a high oil price. Now there is no chance with oil at mid $40s a barrel from within Venezuela.

 

[neilbard]

Jezzas failed to turn up for a poster launch,doesn't want to face the media after leaked manifesto.

That maybe the headline on June 9th.

 

[Common as Mook]

Venezuela's very poorest have lost about 19 pounds in weight on average in the last year. Inflation is expected to reach 2000% and Maduro's answer to this is complete oppression and the suspension of any semblance of democracy. The government have killed 37 protestors since the beginning of April and imprisoned 2000 more. The carcasses of cats, dogs, anteaters and flamingos are being found around the country as some Venezuelans are taking to eating them in desperation. Remember that this was South America's richest country in 2001. They've almost run out of money now.

Socialism. It's all a bit shit really.

Venezuela's plight is absolutely atrocious. Equally atrocious is the abject failure by the likes of Diane Abbott and Owen Jones (who were flown out there to trumpet Chavez's cause) to even reference the plight of the poor people in this country.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

That's a bold move. First post in and you invoke Godwin's Law.

Is there a version of Godwin's Law that means any discussion of socialism will sooner or later (usually sooner) provoke erroneous comparison with an extreme example...?

 

[Bold Seagull]

If the Jezza brigade got hold of power and actually attempted to carry out out their 'leaked manifesto' pledges, the country would be crippled by huge taxes, vast borrowings , militant unions and no doubt plagues of locusts, looking for a free meal.
Does anyone really believe that the likes of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott are capable of running this country?
Ruining it, yes, but not running it.

Our excellent rail services would be ruined for a start.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Our excellent rail services would be ruined for a start.

This. And our education system - admired throughout Europe - would go to pot.

No headlines on these things but I suspect that our excellent provision of community facilities for sport and the arts - also the envy of Europe - would be ruined too.

Given a free rein then McDonnell would probably come up with some barmy Marxist crap like increasing inheritance tax and using the money to keep people off the streets and end the need for foodbanks...

It just doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Would you say capitalism has worked?

I don't see it. I'm not arguing that socialism does - in my lifetime can't say it's ever been implemented. I've seen the crippling, life ruining results of capitalism though. The end of the 80s was truly ruinous for many people. From '79 until now, has that really demonstrated that socialism is the thing that doesn't work?

 

[BLOCK F]

This. And our education system - admired throughout Europe - would go to pot.

No headlines on these things but I suspect that our excellent provision of community facilities for sport and the arts - also the envy of Europe - would be ruined too.

Given a free rein then McDonnell would probably come up with some barmy Marxist crap like increasing inheritance tax and using the money to keep people off the streets and end the need for foodbanks...

It just doesn't bear thinking about.

Well Moshe, you are a braver man than I, if you want to see that lot in charge.
Mmm, perhaps not braver, but more daft.
Thankfully, not enough people have the faith in them that you do......not even vast swathes of their own MP's. What does that tell you?

 

[ManOfSussex]

I was reading earlier regarding the 'leak' of this and it appears to be either:

A. Labour HQ leaking it to undermine Team Corbyn
B. Team Corbyn leaking it to blame Labour HQ for undermining them.

 

[GT49er]

The bulk of these policies quoted look to me like long term noble aims for the benefit of the many. But that degree of change would need to be incremental and implemented over the course of many parliaments. Bundling them all up into a single manifesto just risks Corbyn being laughed out of town and accused of uncosted flights of fancy. It doesn't help when Diane Abbott has already been publicly humiliated as being no good at sums.

This. Education free at the point of delivery and renationalising railways are excellent aims, but the Labour party is incompetent to deliver it (and more importantly Brexit) - and they know they can't possibly win the election so they are promising the moon. I'll wait until we're safely and irrevocably out of the EU, then I'll consider voting Labour again.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'd rather take my chances with that than a very small minority of morally bankrupt scumbags keeping it to themselves, whilst the majority of the population suffer as a result.

this is just flawed rhetoric, the vast majority of wealth is held by morally benevolent people.

The word has developed, when we say socialism (the younger generation, at least) we mean democratic socialism such as the system seen in Norway, Finland, the Netherlands etc - you know, the best countries in the world.

you might interpret socialism to mean something else, Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum movement around them do not. they mean old school socialism as a pathway to communism without revolution. what you speak of is essentially Blairism, which the current Labour leadership and many members see as a something to be rejected and purged from the party.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

not even vast swathes of their own MP's. What does that tell you?

Politicians are generally motivated by power and doing what it takes to get people to vote for them in the short term...?

JC has a far more principled approach. He is willing to sacrifice short term political success in the interests of ultimately making a real difference to working people in this country and internationally.

 

[Buzzer]

Oil in Venezuela accounts for 95% of exports and 50% of GDP. In Mexico oil is 10% of exports. It's historic failure to invest domestically. This could not have been changed overnight with a high oil price. Now there is no chance from within Venezuela.

Let's take Ecuador then.

26% of GDP and 40% of exports. Not quite so reliant but still heavily so - and by my reckoning a similar share of GDP to Venezuela. Wikipedia has it at 30% and similar from World Bank, not your 50% figure. In 2007 Ecuador and Venezuela had almost identical LPI rankings which measure a country's infrastructure. Ecuador = 2.60 (70th place) and Venezuela = 2.62 (69th place). Fast forward to 2016 and Ecuador had grown its infrastructure to 2.78 (74th place) and Venezuela had shrunk to 2.39 (122nd place). http://lpi.worldbank.org/international/global/2016

And Ecuador GDP over last few years:

A very similar share of GDP and a very similar infrastructure in 2007 so they would have experienced similar challenges, one country managed to improve GDP to record levels and improve infrastructure and the other is on the verge of bankruptcy. One of them operates a mixed economy letting the markets take a large role, the other is a command economy. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

[Buzzer]

Would you say capitalism has worked?

It's never been tried.

Serious answer - yes.

 

[beorhthelm]

Would you say capitalism has worked?

I don't see it. I'm not arguing that socialism does - in my lifetime can't say it's ever been implemented. I've seen the crippling, life ruining results of capitalism though. The end of the 80s was truly ruinous for many people. From '79 until now, has that really demonstrated that socialism is the thing that doesn't work?

to paraphrase, its the worse form of economy except all the others we've tried. one cant say it has worked, more that it's working on and off. it isn't a final state, its a process where we all gain, albeit some more than others. the poor today are a great deal better off than the poor only a few generations ago, there are more opportunities to improve and better under capitalism than socialism. consider how far China has come since adopting markets and capitalism, compared to the impoverished basket case before the 80's.

 

[bWize]

I'll wait until we're safely and irrevocably out of the EU, then I'll consider voting Labour again.

I wouldn't count your chickens on the Tories keeping their EU promises just yet... Now that the Tories have UKIP well and truly out of the way I can see them changing their tune on Brexit quite dramaticaly over the next couple of years (if /when they win next month)

 

[beorhthelm]

Oil in Venezuela accounts for 95% of exports and 50% of GDP. In Mexico oil is 10% of exports. It's historic failure to invest domestically.

yes, because the socialist dished out cash and created an economy with no incentives for anyone. oil is 50%GDP because they've done bugger all else.

 

[Fungus]

Even though it's actually Capitalism...

 

[tinycowboy]

There's no doubt that the Labour party is in a mess. I won't be voting for them, but I do think it's a shame that people are dismissing these policies out of hand as fantasy - we do have levers to raise money through taxation: an extra penny or two in tax for those earning more than £80k would not be significant to those taxpayers, and a rise in corporation tax would be easily accommodated. I haven't done the maths, but some of these policies seem to be affordable and to support a fairer society. People seem to baulk at the idea of a "redistribution of wealth", but this is what all progressive taxation is and I think you'd have to be pretty solipsistic to not want to pay any tax or to encourage a regressive form of taxation.