General Election 2017

[Triggaaar]

And get involved in a debate I know I'll lose. I really haven't got the energy today. Sorry.

Pathetic.

 

[beorhthelm]

No, Germany

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...almost-all-of-its-power-from-renewable-energy

respectfully, if pedantically, your link doesnt match the claim: its about a brief period when consumption matched generation from renewables. see here the % of power generation is about 50% fossils, which is consistent with the first diagram. the claim does however match story about Portugal about a year ago.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think talk of socialism and capitalism isn't particularly helpful

If someone is proposing socialism, then of course we need to look at what that entails. If they're not, then fine, we can ignore it.

As to which 'socialism' has worked, Britain 1945-79 was far more 'socialistic' (although I think it was better described as a mixed economy)

Britain 1945-79 was very much a capitalist system, albeit more left wing that what we have now.

and it worked one hell of a lot better than what we've had to endure subsequently

Lol. Britain in the 1970s was a disaster, which is why the country turned to Thatcher.

 

[spring hall convert]

Pathetic.

'Resident pedant.'

 

[Fungus]

Bottom line is it's not capitalism because capitalism works.

I think the definition of "works" must be up for grabs...

 

[Triggaaar]

'Resident pedant.'

So because I like to make crap pedantic jokes, you can't come up with example of socialism that you'd like us to follow? You obviously know that I asked because there has never been an example of socialism that has worked anywhere in the world, ever. So rather than concede that socialism doesn't work, you just say that you don't want to debate it with me because I'm pedantic. Fine, discuss it with someone else on this thread, I'm sure there are plenty of others that would like to hear of this wonderful example of socialism that perhaps only you know about.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

It was, and it went wrong when the money ran out. They were democratically elected and put their policies in place which has set the country on the course of financial ruin.
What? Norway, and the Netherlands? They're all capitalist economies.

I don't think Corbyn would like to run the UK in a similar manor to Venezuela, but to be honest, I don't really know what he would want to do, we've not seen a manifesto from him yet. Venezuela is simply and example of proper socialism ****ing up a country. The European countries you're comparing us to are not examples of socialism in any way.

Firstly, I don't think those countries have the world's highest living standards, but moving on...
Let's narrow down the policies you're referring to so that we can compare - which policies from those countries do you think have been great, and in what way is Corbyn proposing the same?

I honestly haven't got the energy or the hours in the day. You're being deliberately obtuse and you know what Corbyn is proposing is more akin to the models in the Scandinavian countries, rather than communism from Chavez or Mao. If you don't like it, that's fine, keep reading the Telegraph and voting Conservative and I'll keep fighting the good fight for a more equal and just society in which everyone has the same opportunities - no matter what situation they're born into.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Impressed by the Shadow Chancellor when doorstepped by the BBC today.

At 12.42 on this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2017-39876374

Modern, progressive, and fully costed. But don't let this interrupt the important comparisons with Venezuela...

 

[Triggaaar]

I honestly haven't got the energy or the hours in the day. You're being deliberately obtuse and you know what Corbyn is proposing is more akin to the models in the Scandinavian countries, rather than communism from Chavez or Mao.

I like to think it's unlikely that even Corbyn is mad enough to want proper communism, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. He's just one person, and you do get the odd person with crazy ideas. I'm not being obtuse (how rude), the discussion just moved on to what real socialism is, and I'm just saying it's not pretty.

If you don't like it, that's fine, keep reading the Telegraph

Like I'd ever read that shit.

and voting Conservative and I'll keep fighting the good fight for a more equal and just society in which everyone has the same opportunities - no matter what situation they're born into.

That's the kind of society I'd love us to have. I just don't think Corbyn is the man to give it to us, and I think most Labour voters agree.

 

[Buzzer]

Invoking Venuezuela when someone talks about socialism rather than the democratic, socially liberal socialists of Northern Europe is the right wing equivalent of the left invoking the USA rather than France when people talk about modernising the NHS.

Both are equally blinkered and as unhelpful as each other.

Not true. Not true at all. Chavez was adored by McDonnell, Corbyn, Burgon, Thornberry and held to be an inspiration. They all attended numerous solidarity meetings and when Chavez came over it was as the guest of McDonnell. Take this little get together to support Chavez's government.

http://www.communist-party.org.uk/international/solidarity/846-venezuela-under-threat.html

Colin Burgon MP, Chair of Labour Friends of Venezuela, then used his speech to call for more activism and solidarity with Venezuela, expressing his concern that “the external threat to Venezuela will intensify as the National Assembly elections draw closer" and illustrating the need to “raise awareness that Venezuela is the keystone to social progress in Latin America.”

Jeremy Corbyn MP closed the event by calling for continued solidarity with Venezuela and warning that if the Conservatives win the General Election, they will “support the right-wing regimes in Latin America.”

Emily Thornberry welcomed the advances in social progress in Venezuela in recent years in areas such as heath, education and poverty reduction, saying "the progressive government must be fully supported and we must counter all disinformation" aimed at discrediting and isolating the country.


You know what...I think they all rather liked him and the Venezuelan model.

 

[Buzzer]

Your definition is utterly devoid of nuance, and its intention is merely to dismiss.
PS as with a Triggaaar debate, I'm not entirely interested in getting into a Buzzer debate either. Got other stuff to read.

Starts a debate with me and then says he doesn't want to get into a debate. Righto!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

you omitted its a mix of state/private healthcare with insurance based funding. so do we need to move away from current NHS model to improve doctor ratio?

The Germans do public services very well I think, trains and health being two. I'd be happy to move away from the current NHS model to something similar to what I have here. You'd need to pay a lot more tax for it though....a lot more.

 

[The Birdman]

At least Corbyn sticks to his principles by divorcing his second Wife because she wanted to send her 3 sons to a grammar school.

 

[beorhthelm]

The Germans do public services very well I think, trains and health being two. I'd be happy to move away from the current NHS model to something similar to what I have here. You'd need to pay a lot more tax for it though....a lot more.

absolutly agree, however no one is selling that option and the current NHS model is held as sacred.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

absolutly agree, however no one is selling that option and the current NHS model is held as sacred.

As I mentioned, the health tax for employees and employers is much much more than the UK. I think this bit will be the hardest to sell, not the actual model itself.

 

[worthingseagull123]

Some of his points I quite agree with.

Cant bring myself to vote for him though

 

[Machiavelli]

If someone is proposing socialism, then of course we need to look at what that entails. If they're not, then fine, we can ignore it.
Britain 1945-79 was very much a capitalist system, albeit more left wing that what we have now.
Lol. Britain in the 1970s was a disaster, which is why the country turned to Thatcher.

Really? How was it so much more of a disaster than the last decade. I challenge you to find figures for at least half of those variables I mentioned (and you've cruelly culled from your response) to compare the two. That's the kind of pedantry you like isn't it? I suspect you won't bother, and will keep that myth going that the 70s was a disaster, and that all is right as rain at present.

 

[Triggaaar]

Really? How was it so much more of a disaster than the last decade. I challenge you to find figures for at least half of those variables I mentioned (and you've cruelly culled from your response)

You made claims on growth, productivity, unemployment etc. They're your claims, isn't the ownness on you to prove your claims? Your claims also dated back to 1945, which isn't really that suitable for comparison sake (a war had just ended, we were missing a good number of people, rebuilding was necessary etc) - just stick to comparing the 70s to recent times.

That's the kind of pedantry you like isn't it?

What? You're not making sense.

I suspect you won't bother, and will keep that myth going that the 70s was a disaster, and that all is right as rain at present.

I never said everything was great at the moment. Yes, I think the 70s was a bad time, when our (large and historic) manufacturing industry was failing, never to recover. If I'm wrong and the 70s were actually a great time for the UK, please explain how that's so?

 

[ALBION28]

You made claims on growth, productivity, unemployment etc. They're your claims, isn't the ownness on you to prove your claims? Your claims also dated back to 1945, which isn't really that suitable for comparison sake (a war had just ended, we were missing a good number of people, rebuilding was necessary etc) - just stick to comparing the 70s to recent times.

What? You're not making sense.

I never said everything was great at the moment. Yes, I think the 70s was a bad time, when our (large and historic) manufacturing industry was failing, never to recover. If I'm wrong and the 70s were actually a great time for the UK, please explain how that's so?

On the 1970's . Can I just say ...' Peter Ward'!!!

 

[Dorset Seagull]

respectfully, if pedantically, your link doesnt match the claim: its about a brief period when consumption matched generation from renewables. see here the % of power generation is about 50% fossils, which is consistent with the first diagram. the claim does however match story about Portugal about a year ago.

I am in Portugal now as I always am this time of year for 2 weeks and I think I remember it was this time last year I saw it mentioned