General Election 2017

[Herr Tubthumper]

The strange thing about this 'far left' manifesto is that there's little in it that the centre-right German chancellor would object to.

Free university tuition? Yep, Germany has that. State-run rail? Germany has that too. Better healthcare? Germany has more doctors per head than any other country, so we'd go with that? Publicly owned energy companies to provide local competition? Well, Germany doesn't have state-owned energy but does have stricter competition rules to ensure the market's fair - not six oligopolies. A fair and flexible immigration policy? Germany has that in spades - it wants more immigration, not less.

Merkel would quibble with some of the finer points but there's nothing in there that would truly frighten her. And yet this is 'far left' ... we live in strange times

Wouldn't happen in Germany.

I always wanted to live in a far-left utopia.....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I do not use trains but from afar when you stand on the station platform you do not have a choice of a rail operators to take you to your destination, so I guess the positive dynamic of privatisation and choice is lost, I suspect the best option would be to get a good private company to do the job better.

My personal take is I prefer a decent punctual service, quality rolling stock, well maintained tracks, and cheap fairs. The Germans seems to achieve this with a state run company.....

 

[Fungus]

an awful lot of socialist would disagree with you. why the desire to redefine socialism? its almost like its recognised for the flaws it has, yet politicians claim to be socialist, so lets change what they mean.

I love the way that socialists argue that it isn't real socialism even though the market and money supply is clearly planned and controlled all because the means of production are owned by the people via the state rather than directly. And if it isn't socialism it must be capitalism.

All that other stuff about no currency and the withering of the state isn't socialism, it's full blown Marxism.

Capitalism needs competition and an ability to trade openly without intervention. Sorry but if you don't accept the definition of socialism based solely on the way in which workers control the means of production then there's no bloody way you can counter claim that it must therefore be some form of capitalism.

That may be A definition, but the Socialist Party of Great Britain has been consistent in its definition since forming in 1904.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Its an excellent manifesto, shame about the salesmen, but we have to look beyond that and realise that this is the Britain we want

 

[Triggaaar]

Venezuela's very poorest have lost about 19 pounds in weight on average in the last year. Inflation is expected to reach 2000% and Maduro's answer to this is complete oppression and the suspension of any semblance of democracy. The government have killed 37 protestors since the beginning of April and imprisoned 2000 more. The carcasses of cats, dogs, anteaters and flamingos are being found around the country as some Venezuelans are taking to eating them in desperation. Remember that this was South America's richest country in 2001. They've almost run out of money now.

Come on, that's hardly a balanced report, it says nothing about the good few years they had before the money ran out.

 

[Triggaaar]

The word has developed, when we say socialism (the younger generation, at least) we mean democratic socialism

Venezuela was an example of democratic socialism.

There is limited food production in Venezuela and little industry due to this limited domestic investment.
I'd put the blame on Capitalism and short term profit from oil that did not allow Venezuela to form an independent economic infrastructure.

The lack of domestic investment is not caused by a model of either socialism or capitalism, it's caused by poor governance. They've also had socialist rule for a good while now, and not invested, so that can't be because of capitalism either.

And it's not like you can say capitalist countries (like all the world leading economies) don't build domestic infrastructure. Your argument doesn't make sense.

 

[Ernest]

Tory manifesto so far

Strong and stable
Put taxes up on the quiet
Brexit means Brexit
Kill loads of foxes
Kill loads more disabled people

 

[Dorset Seagull]

Tory manifesto so far

Strong and stable
Put taxes up on the quiet
Brexit means Brexit
Kill loads of foxes
Kill loads more disabled people

Labour manifesto

Take lots of money from the rich
Spend it
Take lots of ..oh

 

[spring hall convert]

Invoking Venuezuela when someone talks about socialism rather than the democratic, socially liberal socialists of Northern Europe is the right wing equivalent of the left invoking the USA rather than France when people talk about modernising the NHS.

Both are equally blinkered and as unhelpful as each other.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

Venezuela was an example of democratic socialism.

The lack of domestic investment is not caused by a model of either socialism or capitalism, it's caused by poor governance. They've also had socialist rule for a good while now, and not invested, so that can't be because of capitalism either.

And it's not like you can say capitalist countries (like all the world leading economies) don't build domestic infrastructure. Your argument doesn't make sense.

Venezuela is not democratic - one of the leaders of the main opposition party is currently behind bars. Very democratic. Give it twenty years until the younger generation are the main part of the voting population and this country will actually start to look like a country id like to live in.

 

[beorhthelm]

... Better healthcare? Germany has more doctors per head than any other country, so we'd go with that?

you omitted its a mix of state/private healthcare with insurance based funding. so do we need to move away from current NHS model to improve doctor ratio? Germany energy, so im told, also has setup where industrial power stations are exempt from carbon related levies (to protect industry from the costs) yet put excess energy into the local grid. here we over-regulate the market (according to the ex-regulator) then blame any problems on the oligopolies.

and back to the Labour manifesto, the energy policy to cap household bills to an arbitrary, round £1000 is a great one too. given average bills are ~1200-1300 and energy companies make ~4% profit at the moment, the policy would see them make a 17% loss at a time when we are expecting investment in new energy supplies. genius.

 

[BigGully]

My personal take is I prefer a decent punctual service, quality rolling stock, well maintained tracks, and cheap fairs. The Germans seems to achieve this with a state run company.....

I always break into a wry smile when these statements are made, as you know I have some link to Germany and enjoy it and visit regularly etc. but I am an infrequent train user so perhaps I am less qualified than most, but I have travelled by train many times in Germany.

I get that Southern are the devils here and it didnt effect me as I rarely use them but the few times a have used the trains here they have been on time, clean and modern, similarly in German the experience has been fine, but nothing particularly different.

My trip to Berlin that you kindly helped me with is an example, the trains were fine, I think on time but they were crowded (maybe inevitably so) non of our party could sit for the duration of the journey and they were not particularly shiny and modern, they were no more than adequate.

So I agree punctuality, quality rolling stock, competitively priced and reliability should be the mantra, but if we take the recent Southern debacle out of the equation I wonder really how we might compare to Germany.

A quick google confirms that German rail workers are prone to industrial actions too and the trains certainly werent running on time then, but if you have never visited Germany you would think commuters went to work on some kind of magic carpets.

Just putting my tin helmet on .............................

 

[spring hall convert]

I understand people's reactions to some extent.

However, seven years of reducing the size of the state and the Tories are nowhere near eradicating the annual deficit that they said would be gone by 2015. Please let's not have a debate about Labour spending in the context of Tory economic success. By their own significant measure of success they have failed.

 

[Triggaaar]

Is there a version of Godwin's Law that means any discussion of socialism will sooner or later (usually sooner) provoke erroneous comparison with an extreme example...?

Well you could go for Chairman Mao's cultural revolution if you like, a socialist movement that led to the death of dozens of millions of his own citizens.
Venezuela's plight is just a modern example of socialism gone wrong. It's all a bit depressing, can someone give us an example of socialism going right please?

 

[Was not Was]

I'd like to know if there is anyone whose voting intention is affected by a manifesto these days?

It seems to me from this thread and a bit of phone-in I heard on 5Live that if you're already set against Labour, it's "Marxist chancellor blah money tree blah"; if you're in favour, it's "ooh, look at this, making things fair, everyone paying their way".

Why even bother with a manifesto?

 

[Gwylan]

you omitted its a mix of state/private healthcare with insurance based funding. so do we need to move away from current NHS model to improve doctor ratio?

My post was getting rather long so I didn't go into this, But I see that this as a further example of how the Labour proposals wouldn't frighten the CDU. The German insurance policy is, in effect, an additional tax where the rich pay more - it's a different approach from Corbyn's but the same end result.

Germany energy, so im told, also has setup where industrial power stations are exempt from carbon related levies (to protect industry from the costs) yet put excess energy into the local grid. here we over-regulate the market (according to the ex-regulator) then blame any problems on the oligopolies.

and back to the Labour manifesto, the energy policy to cap household bills to an arbitrary, round £1000 is a great one too. given average bills are ~1200-1300 and energy companies make ~4% profit at the moment, the policy would see them make a 17% loss at a time when we are expecting investment in new energy supplies. genius.

The capping of the bills is also Tory policy too.

But yes, there needs to be more thought given to energy policy. However, one thing I do know about Germany is that something like 70 to 80% of its electricity is from renewable sources ... and one day last year, 100% of its power was. That's something we should aiming at here ... I'm not sure that Labour nor the Tories know how to achieve this, however.

 

[beorhthelm]

Invoking Venezuela when someone talks about socialism rather than the democratic, socially liberal socialists of Northern Europe is the right wing equivalent of the left invoking the USA rather than France when people talk about modernising the NHS.

Both are equally blinkered and as unhelpful as each other.

isnt the point that Corbyn's flavour of socialism is closer to the Venezuelian, than the more more centrist models practiced on the continent?

 

[Triggaaar]

Venezuela is not democratic - one of the leaders of the main opposition party is currently behind bars. Very democratic.

It was, which is why I said 'was'. Now that it's gone tits up and there are protests, the government are trying to cling to power.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My post was getting rather long so I didn't go into this, But I see that this as a further example of how the Labour proposals wouldn't frighten the CDU. The German insurance policy is, in effect, an additional tax where the rich pay more - it's a different approach from Corbyn's but the same end result.

You are correct. Its, in effect, a ring fenced tax. And it's quite a high tax as well. But, it's kind of capped as you can opt out and take out a private insurance if, I think, this is cheaper.

 

[beorhthelm]

... However, one thing I do know about Germany is that something like 70 to 80% of its electricity is from renewable sources ... and one day last year, 100% of its power was.

you're thinking of Portugal.

and the healthcare insurance, we could have that here too but no wants to change the NHS ownership or funding model.