Gender debate: Ian McEwan causes outrage with his remark

[alfredmizen]

Agreed. A gay mate of mine once said that the idea of choosing your sexuality is nonsense especially for schoolkids because of the amount of abuse they would get and also the angst and internal grief that coming to terms with being gay causes. I would imagine that this is even worse if you believe you're transgender.

I'm of the opinion that it's none of my business what someone else wants to call themselves or what loo they want to use, it's entirely the perogative of the person concerned and as you say, a bit of training and understanding and we'll all be fine.

Spot on , but your post does remind me of the old graffiti
"My mother made me a homosexual ". And underneath somebody wrote " if I give her the wool will she make me one too ? "

 

[Diego Napier]

I have a DVD featuring a similar scene to that.

Curiously, your use of the indefinite article implies you have just one.

 

[GT49er]

I'm of the opinion that it's none of my business what someone else wants to call themselves or what loo they want to use, it's entirely the perogative of the person concerned and as you say, a bit of training and understanding and we'll all be fine.

Really? I'm all for freedom of choice, but I can see nothing but trouble ahead if I start barging into the ladies loo!

 

[nwgull]

Really? I'm all for freedom of choice, but I can see nothing but trouble ahead if I start barging into the ladies loo!

Bugger. I was thinking of boldly walking into the ladies' showers at my local Virgin Active to test the acceptability of this modern PC principle.

 

[The Clamp]

Whether one agrees with the direction it's headed or not, the world is a changing place. Children now will be living as adults in a world where sexuality and gender is viewed differently than it was in our youth. Schools attempting to prepare them for this should be applauded, whether they get it right at the start is up for debate but it sure beats learning about sexuality by a half hour lesson looking at a frogs genitals to prepare a kid for what the real world will throw at them.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

if people want to play with sexuality, let them, its all good fun in the end. but you've gone and confused that with gender, and frankly i think so are most of those with this issue. im not looking to stigmatise anyone, i just dont want to start encouraging people to question or overrule basic physiology. it all rather reminds me of Life of Brian "i want to be a woman ... I want to have babies". sorry, you're out of luck.

Well i'm no expert, but isn't the syntax they're using 'gender identity' to differentiate from the physiology?

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Ha! There's irony....

Where?

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't care whether you're Heather, Trevor or Whatever - can't we all just get along?

 

[BadFish]

I don't care whether you're Heather, Trevor or Whatever - can't we all just get along?

You'd think so wouldn't you. Too many people too concerned about what other people get up to.

 

[Buzzer]

Where?

You saying about ignorance. Apart from Jamie Lee Curtis and the few others I mentioned we're all ignorant about whether she was born with meat and two veg. Don't worry, it wasn't a pop at you.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well i'm no expert, but isn't the syntax they're using 'gender identity' to differentiate from the physiology?

syntax is grammar, semantics is meaning. if they want to separate from physiological meaning of gender, they should go off and make a new word to define what they mean. maybe that in itself would resolve a lot of the "issues", as i see it most of this matter has nothing to do with genuine gender mis-assignment, but a desire to change gender, or be perceived to be a different gender, including no gender.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

You saying about ignorance. Apart from Jamie Lee Curtis and the few others I mentioned we're all ignorant about whether she was born with meat and two veg. Don't worry, it wasn't a pop at you.

No problem, hence me phrasing it as a question..

I quite like the idea of a woman that many find attractive highlighting this issue. It does make me think that it's been kept a secret due to the societal stigma around these issues, maybe in coming generations it'll be fashionable to be born with both, and the famous will pride themselves that they were lucky enough to have it happen.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

syntax is grammar, semantics is meaning. if they want to separate from physiological meaning of gender, they should go off and make a new word to define what they mean. maybe that in itself would resolve a lot of the "issues", as i see it most of this matter has nothing to do with genuine gender mis-assignment, but a desire to change gender, or be perceived to be a different gender, including no gender.

Thank you, I always get those confused. Trying to create a mnemonic now...

Yes, i see your point, there's further muddying to this debate also. Sexuality is a difficult subject for many. I think many people suppress their natural desires for fear of judgement, and many either can't or won't have the realisation of this. Add this into the mix and it's a minefield of buttons.

Do we know what defines sexuality yet?
A mixture of genes, hormone levels and nurture i guess. Would be nice to see how much each weights into the equation.

 

[jakarta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVk4jQt7pMk

 

[beorhthelm]

Do we know what defines sexuality yet?

apparently not, yet we are now supposed to go further and accept and embrace teenagers making life altering changes to their bodies for "gender identity". it worries me.

 

[Bakero]

We can only hope that Ian makes some sort of atonement for his remarks.

Saturday.

 

[spring hall convert]

syntax is grammar, semantics is meaning. if they want to separate from physiological meaning of gender, they should go off and make a new word to define what they mean. maybe that in itself would resolve a lot of the "issues", as i see it most of this matter has nothing to do with genuine gender mis-assignment, but a desire to change gender, or be perceived to be a different gender, including no gender.

The use of cisgender does some of this work doesn't it? cis/ non-cis etc... or are you talking about something else?

 

[Bombadier Botty]

Saturday.

In the cement garden?!?!

 

[beorhthelm]

The use of cisgender does some of this work doesn't it?

it probably does, if we want to label everything to the nth degree, which i thought from being in the student union 20 years ago everyone wanted to stop doing. consequently im not male, im cisgender so that someone else can become x-gendered to differentiate themselves, while remaining on some continuum. so. much. nonsense.

 

[Buzzer]

it probably does, if we want to label everything to the nth degree, which i thought from being in the student union 20 years ago everyone wanted to stop doing. consequently im not male, im cisgender so that someone else can become x-gendered to differentiate themselves, while remaining on some continuum. so. much. nonsense.

Respectfully, I disagree. Unlike, say, race where people can cherrypick descriptions for themselves and don't have to do much apart from wear that label, people who are transgender tend to have gender realignment operations, which is, just about the most traumatic, prolonged thing I can imagine a human doing to themselves, it's certainly not cosmetic. As others have pointed out, the suicide rates amongst this group are astonishingly high, these people go through hell. I think therefore, specifically for them it's not nonsense and if they want to refer to themselves as X or Y then I'm happy to indulge them. I'm even happy for them to refer to me as cisgender as long as they accept that I'm going to carry on referring to myself as a heterosexual male.