Gender debate: Ian McEwan causes outrage with his remark

[MattBackHome]

"Call me old-fashioned, but I tend to think of people with penises as men"

(Guardian 2nd April)


Thoughts?

This is the first I've heard of it, so I'm not sure how much outrage there has really been.

If his intention is to make some blurred point about the confusion regarding trans labelling these days then he's missed his mark I reckon (and he's normally very astute and careful with his choice of words, so I'm surprised by this). We all tend to think of people with penises as men because they tend to be men. So the statement is correct, and there's very little old fashioned about it.

Having said that, almost all sentences which start with "Call me old fashioned but..." signify the speaker as being out of touch with something or other (and further legitimise the very item they are failing to grasp). A bit like "No offence meant, but..."

So nothing to see here, I reckon.

 

[BBassic]

Bo**ocks. It's nothing to do with mental health. It's about what's fashionable.

Sometimes there's a response so blindingly ignorant there is no need to counter it. This is one such post.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

based on what, where has this demographic sprung from and how has it been reliably surveyed to establish the legitimacy of the gender mis-assignment (a genuine, rare issue)? what is the typcial reasoning for suicide tendencies among wider teen/youth group, is it rejection from friends and family, assault and discrimination?

McEwan's view is covered in a Guardian article (i think the original is in the Times but paywall), which is far more considered than the single line quote, i think hes hitting the nail on the head. i concerned a lot of confused, hormonal youth to self diagnosing mis-assignment or other gender issues, with serious consequences. Stonewall say "The complexity of gender identity extends beyond genitalia", which seems much nonsense to me as that is how we define gender (semantic i know but that's exactly my point). the complexity is creating an issue when its not, or creating a proxy for another issue, which is i believe what is happening most of the time.

Let's view the argument from another angle.

Who does it hurt if an individual plays around with their sexuality to make a fashion statement? Maybe themselves, but probably not and that's their choice.

Who does it hurt if we stigmatise all those who are having gender issues? Many.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

So who is exactly offended this time? What a stupid country this is becoming.

I'm offended about you being offended about someone being offended.

 

[Acker79]

I'm offended about you being offended about someone being offended.

How dare you!

 

[Buzzer]

It's an opinion. It's also one from ignorance.

Wasn't Jamie Lee Curtis born with a penis?

Ha! There's irony. No-one except JLC, her parents and her doctors really know the truth. http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.asp


On the wider debate there's an interesting narrative developing with the minority rights movement. I think gay men have been so successful in challenging discrimination in their own sphere of influence that other minorities now see gay men as part of the establishment and others as the new enemy. We have black women complaining that gay men are culturally appropriating their mannerisms, we have bi and transexuals trying to ban gay drag queens, we have universities trying to remove gay men from having positions of power in the student minority rights committees because, in their own words, they don't believe gay men are oppressed nowadays. We even had one university ban and no-platform Peter Tatchell accusing him of being a racist and oppressor.

There's nowt so queer as folk.

 

[amexee]

I was born in the wrong body. I should have been remarkably physically strong, fast and skilful. I wonder if its too late to be to be sportingly re-assigned

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.

 

[GT49er]

I was born in the wrong body. I should have been remarkably physically strong, fast and skilful. I wonder if its too late to be to be sportingly re-assigned

This! Could I add devilishly attractive to women as well?

 

[El Presidente]

I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.

I have a DVD featuring a similar scene to that.

 

[Bombadier Botty]

We can only hope that Ian makes some sort of atonement for his remarks.

 

[spring hall convert]

There are far more important things in this world to worry about.

Unless it affects you, of course.

Easy to talk bollocks from a position of privilege isn't it?

 

[spring hall convert]

Bo**ocks. It's nothing to do with mental health. It's about what's fashionable.

Just out of interest, outside of pointing and staring, what day to day interaction do you have with trans people?

 

[alfredmizen]

I went to school with a kid who was very definitely "born in the wrong body" , was known as twinkle toes, he got terrible stick , poor sod , I don't think it's anything to do with being "fashionable" , just that these conditions are more recognised these days, that said I don't think there needs to be a huge issue made of it, just teachers need to have a little training or whatever.

 

[brightn'ove]

(And that includes McKellen, who seems to have forgotten the struggle against homophobia which has been a feature of his life.)

wrong bloke

 

[beorhthelm]

Let's view the argument from another angle.

Who does it hurt if an individual plays around with their sexuality to make a fashion statement? Maybe themselves, but probably not and that's their choice.

Who does it hurt if we stigmatise all those who are having gender issues? Many.

if people want to play with sexuality, let them, its all good fun in the end. but you've gone and confused that with gender, and frankly i think so are most of those with this issue. im not looking to stigmatise anyone, i just dont want to start encouraging people to question or overrule basic physiology. it all rather reminds me of Life of Brian "i want to be a woman ... I want to have babies". sorry, you're out of luck.

 

[spring hall convert]

the complexity is creating an issue when its not, or creating a proxy for another issue, which is i believe what is happening most of the time.

Is a fair point. The problem is that there is no controlled test here. As attitudes toward homosexuality have softened, it has encouraged a place where gender issues could also be addressed. It's not to say they didn't exist before, just that as a society we are in a place to attempt to deal with it.

It's complex.

 

[alfredmizen]

Unless it affects you, of course.

Easy to talk bollocks from a position of privilege isn't it? (And that includes McKellen, who seems to have forgotten the struggle against homophobia which has been a feature of his life.)

you seemed to be in such a hurry to be outraged you've got your Ian's in a bit of a twist old chap

 

[spring hall convert]

wrong bloke

Haha, whoops. Thought it would be a bit odd.

 

[Buzzer]

I went to school with a kid who was very definitely "born in the wrong body" , was known as twinkle toes, he got terrible stick , poor sod , I don't think it's anything to do with being "fashionable" , just that these conditions are more recognised these days, that said I don't think there needs to be a huge issue made of it, just teachers need to have a little training or whatever.

Agreed. A gay mate of mine once said that the idea of choosing your sexuality is nonsense especially for schoolkids because of the amount of abuse they would get and also the angst and internal grief that coming to terms with being gay causes. I would imagine that this is even worse if you believe you're transgender.

I'm of the opinion that it's none of my business what someone else wants to call themselves or what loo they want to use, it's entirely the perogative of the person concerned and as you say, a bit of training and understanding and we'll all be fine.