Gaza / Israel

[BadFish]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/gaza-ceasefire-hangs-in-the-balance-20121121-29q70.html

We can all be happy there is acease fire 9not matter how ustable.

I foudn it interesting that the US refused the press release from the UN because it did not explicitly critcise the Gazan Rocket attacks

Israelis 5 Gazans 139 the current scores on the doors

 

[tezz79]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/gaza-ceasefire-hangs-in-the-balance-20121121-29q70.html

We can all be happy there is acease fire 9not matter how ustable.

I foudn it interesting that the US refused the press release from the UN because it did not explicitly critcise the Gazan Rocket attacks

Israelis 5 Gazans 139 the current scores on the doors

Although the high death count you could argue is not simply just down to over the top Israeli aggression as Hamas (who were launching attacks before they got into power in 2007 i might add, gaining criticism from some Palestinian people & fatah on occasion) are launching & stockpiling their weapons in built up civilian areas knowing civilian loss of life is unpalatable viewing to the rest of the world.
Again should Israel be using air strikes in such built up areas ? Probably not but you can see the dilemma Israel faces as what other option do they have in the short term when it come to stopping the rockets.

I'd like to see the "scores"/ figures comparing days that rockets have been launched from Gaza in comparison to days Israel have launched air strikes in the last couple of months.

Not wishing to open another debate as we both have our views & in all honesty there has been so much wrong done on both sides over the very many years that both sets of people could put forward a convincing argument trying to justify their actions while neither side can really claim the moral high ground.

I'm pretty optimistic that this ceasefire could hold for some time as Egypt seem to have done a good job ensuring both sides have made some compromises without really losing face (both are claiming victory) so fingers crossed

 

[BadFish]

Although the high death count you could argue is not simply just down to over the top Israeli aggression as Hamas (who were launching attacks before they got into power in 2007 i might add, gaining criticism from some Palestinian people & fatah on occasion) are launching & stockpiling their weapons in built up civilian areas knowing civilian loss of life is unpalatable viewing to the rest of the world.
Again should Israel be using air strikes in such built up areas ? Probably not but you can see the dilemma Israel faces as what other option do they have in the short term when it come to stopping the rockets.

I'd like to see the "scores"/ figures comparing days that rockets have been launched from Gaza in comparison to days Israel have launched air strikes in the last couple of months.

Not wishing to open another debate as we both have our views & in all honesty there has been so much wrong done on both sides over the very many years that both sets of people could put forward a convincing argument trying to justify their actions while neither side can really claim the moral high ground.

I'm pretty optimistic that this ceasefire could hold for some time as Egypt seem to have done a good job ensuring both sides have made some compromises without really losing face (both are claiming victory) so fingers crossed

I agree with this. I am surprised that this deal has been brokered so quickly. Lets hope they can build on this to promote some kind of lasting peace and maybe even a solution to this situation.

I do fear that the sticking point in this may be the USA, the article I posted hints that they are not prepared to compromise or are not interested in peace.

 

[tezz79]

I agree with this. I am surprised that this deal has been brokered so quickly. Lets hope they can build on this to promote some kind of lasting peace and maybe even a solution to this situation.

I do fear that the sticking point in this may be the USA, the article I posted hints that they are not prepared to compromise or are not interested in peace.

The USA are a massive factor I'd say, I also don't think the average middle eastern man or even militant really differentiate between the 2 nations as they are so entangled which is a big problem given some of the USA's recent military adventures in the region

 

[BadFish]

The USA are a massive factor I'd say, I also don't think the average middle eastern man or even militant really differentiate between the 2 nations as they are so entangled which is a big problem given some of the USA's recent military adventures in the region

They certianly have their own agenda.

 

[User removed 4]

This.

f*** the Israelis , they stole the country off the palestinians, and killed more than enough british servicemen while they were at it , i've left a couple of links to show what a joke the stance that we "wont negotiate with terrorists " is from the greedy , land grabbing bastards.


The Sergeants affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Soulman]

So you are suggesting that The problems in Palestine are a part of the world wide issue of the Muslims trying to take over the world?

Yep, re my post that you answered. I am suggesting that.
Interesting article imo.
Israel under siege The Spectator

 

[BadFish]

Yep, re my post that you answered. I am suggesting that.
Interesting article imo.
Israel under siege The Spectator

Ta i will read it when i get a few minutes.

 

[BadFish]

Ta i will read it when i get a few minutes.

Interesting. But for me once you wade through the anti islam rhetoric ( i don't for a second believe Muslims are west hating evil lunatics).

What you are left with is the fact that the other countries in the region agree that Israel is at fault here.

 

[mistahclarke]

There is no such thing as “confiscated Palestinian land”.

Really? My understanding is there was no such thing as the country of Israel until last century, which just happens to be what was previously called Palestine.

 

[Soulman]

Interesting. But for me once you wade through the anti islam rhetoric ( i don't for a second believe Muslims are west hating evil lunatics).

What you are left with is the fact that the other countries in the region agree that Israel is at fault here.

The other countries in the region are Arab countries..... so no surprise who they blame is it really. lol

 

[Soulman]

Really? My understanding is there was no such thing as the country of Israel until last century, which just happens to be what was previously called Palestine.

There was no such religion as muslim/Palestine when the Jews were there over 2 thousand years ago.

 

[mistahclarke]

There was no such religion as muslim/Palestine when the Jews were there over 2 thousand years ago.

Do you know your house? Well my ancestors lived there 2000 years ago on that land. I'll be round tomorrow to move in, but you can stay in the shed.

To be honest, I don't know a lot about the whole thing and haven't studied it.

 

[Soulman]

Do you know your house? Well my ancestors lived there 2000 years ago on that land. I'll be round tomorrow to move in, but you can stay in the shed.

To be honest, I don't know a lot about the whole thing and haven't studied it.

Judaism at around 2000 BCE
Islam at around 610 A.D
I think the Romans ran the Jews out of the area known as Palestine. The name Palestine encompasses the ancient Holy Land and the modern nation of Israel. But it is not the original name for that country. The Romans assigned this name about the second century A.D.
Some believe that Israel today was once called Palestine millennia ago. The word Palestine does not occur in the original Hebrew or Greek Bible texts.
The Bible does not use the term “Palestine” or “Palestinians” to designate any geographic location or people.
Palestinians today insist that they inhabited the land of Canaan before God gave it to Israel. But they are either seriously misinformed or willfully ignorant. The Canaanites described above were definitely not of Arab descent. The Arabic peoples are descendants of Ishmael, who descended from Shem. The peoples of Tunisia, Malta, Algeria and Sicily of today are of similar descent as these Canaanites.
The peoples who now call themselves Palestinians correctly acknowledge the common ancestry of Abraham, just as the Jews and Arabs claim.
Arabs comprise the bulk of the remaining residents. Not only did the term “Palestine” originate as late as the Byzantine era, the Arabs who call themselves “Palestinian” did not lay claim to the Holy Land until about the tenth century A.D.

So many many many years/centuries before 1917 and 1948, which most on this thread talk about.
In fact, relatively few Arabs were in the region when the Jews returned in 1917. Only after the Jews established their nation in 1948 did the masses of these Arabic peoples feel drawn to this particular territory. The population of Palestinians swelled dramatically after the Jews brought about vast improvements in agricultural production. They established irrigation and re-introduced efficient means of agriculture.

 

[BadFish]

The other countries in the region are Arab countries..... so no surprise who they blame is it really. lol

No surprise if you want to make everything about Islam, no. I don't have this agenda so don't see it with this kind of generalisation. There are many other countries who are not predominately Muslim that disagree with what Israel has been doing. For example I believe the Government of the UK (majority Christian) were going to criticise Israel if they sent in ground troops. Many countries in the UN have also critised Israel and many countries have introduced economic sanctions against them.

 

[BadFish]

Judaism at around 2000 BCE
Islam at around 610 A.D
I think the Romans ran the Jews out of the area known as Palestine. The name Palestine encompasses the ancient Holy Land and the modern nation of Israel. But it is not the original name for that country. The Romans assigned this name about the second century A.D.
Some believe that Israel today was once called Palestine millennia ago. The word Palestine does not occur in the original Hebrew or Greek Bible texts.
The Bible does not use the term “Palestine” or “Palestinians” to designate any geographic location or people.
Palestinians today insist that they inhabited the land of Canaan before God gave it to Israel. But they are either seriously misinformed or willfully ignorant. The Canaanites described above were definitely not of Arab descent. The Arabic peoples are descendants of Ishmael, who descended from Shem. The peoples of Tunisia, Malta, Algeria and Sicily of today are of similar descent as these Canaanites.
The peoples who now call themselves Palestinians correctly acknowledge the common ancestry of Abraham, just as the Jews and Arabs claim.
Arabs comprise the bulk of the remaining residents. Not only did the term “Palestine” originate as late as the Byzantine era, the Arabs who call themselves “Palestinian” did not lay claim to the Holy Land until about the tenth century A.D.

So many many many years/centuries before 1917 and 1948, which most on this thread talk about.
In fact, relatively few Arabs were in the region when the Jews returned in 1917. Only after the Jews established their nation in 1948 did the masses of these Arabic peoples feel drawn to this particular territory. The population of Palestinians swelled dramatically after the Jews brought about vast improvements in agricultural production. They established irrigation and re-introduced efficient means of agriculture.

By your logic here (i don't accept what you have written as fact btw as i see no link or reference) are you suggesting that the Aborignies would be perfectly within their rights to throw any Australian with no aboriginal blood out of the country?

The fact is that a lot of stuff happened between the date you have mentioned and much of that stuff cannot be undone and much of it is down to how the facts are interpreted. The reason that 1946 is mention is that this was the last time that agreement was reached on the two parties involved living together on this land. That agreement was not broken by the Palestinians it was broken by the Israelis.

My point suggests that the point we are at now requires both parties to agree on and stick to an agreement of ownership of the land they are disputing. This would surely have to begin with the acknowledgement that the Palestinians have some rights to ownership of some of the land to create a Palestinian state (which they currently do not). Allowing people an area to live in (without ownship rights), Building check points and walls to govern and control them is not the way of diplomacy (and results in those people getting pissed off and firing rockets at you).

To bring peace to this situation it seems to me that each side in turn must:

Palestine

Stop firing rockets
Stop suicide bombers
Stop using civilians as human shields
What have I missed?

Israel

remove the illegal checkpoints.
Remove the illegal wall.
Give the Palestinians some of the land agreed upon in 1946.
Allow the Palesinians to create their own state.
Stop Air strikes
Stop ground strikes
Stop Jewish settlers settling in Gaza and buying up all the real estate
Stop limiting goods in and out of the occupied territories
Stop limiting the movement of the Palestinians in and out of the occupied territories
Stop bulldozing Palestinian Houses
Give back some of the land taken since the borders were agreed upon in 1946
What did I miss?

So to me the balance of what needs to happen in this conflict lays squarely at the feet of Israel.

 

[Soulman]

So to me the balance of what needs to happen in this conflict lays squarely at the feet of Israel.

Maybe this is another reason that peace will be hard to find.
"Why Palestinians Want This Video Removed"

I hope you take the trouble to watch it.
Why Palestinians Want This Video Removed - YouTube

 

[BadFish]

Maybe this is another reason that peace will be hard to find.
"Why Palestinians Want This Video Removed"

I hope you take the trouble to watch it.
Why Palestinians Want This Video Removed - YouTube

I watched it and have adapted my list accordingly

Palestine

-Stop firing rockets
-Stop suicide bombers
-Stop using civilians as human shields
-Relinquish control of east Jerusalem because it more sacred to the Jews and only a bit sacred to Mulims (according to a youtube video)
-***They need to piss off out of their homeland because 2000 years ago it was written in a couple of fictional books that the lands was meant for Gods chosen people. (of course no-one can actually agree as to whether it is in the Qur'an http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/israel_land_egypt.html). But is definitely in the Bible...the Jewish holy book.
What have I missed?

***"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Israel

-remove the illegal checkpoints.
-Remove the illegal wall.
-Give the Palestinians some of the land agreed upon in 1946.
-Allow the Palesinians to create their own state.
-Stop Air strikes
-Stop ground strikes
-Stop Jewish settlers settling in Gaza and buying up all the real estate
-Stop limiting goods in and out of the occupied territories
-Stop limiting the movement of the Palestinians in and out of the occupied territories
-Stop bulldozing Palestinian Houses
-Give back some of the land taken since the borders were agreed upon in 1946
What did I miss?

 

[BadFish]

http://johnpilger.com/videos/palestine-is-still-the-issue



An excellent documentary if anyone is interested.

 

[Soulman]

Hmmmm. John Pilger, who presented the documentary.
Since his early years as a war correspondent in Vietnam, Pilger has been a strong critic of American and British foreign policy, which he considers to be driven by an imperialist agenda. Pilger has also criticised his native country's treatment of Indigenous Australians and the practices of the mainstream media. In the UK print media, he has had a long association with the Daily Mirror, and writes a fortnightly columnn for the New Statesman magazine.
The New Statesman, who's editor at the time was......... Mehdi Hasan.