Gatherings of more than 6 people to be banned

[Weststander]

For me its not where Sweden where, they admit they made mistakes which mostly cost the deaths of the very elderly in care homes, it's where they are now and there ability to now function much better as a society. Comparing them to their neighbours is pointless because they had extreme lockdowns. If we all locked down every year no one would die of flu. But we dont.

Sweden now - their infection rate is higher than two out of three of their neighbours.

 

[Weststander]

Got it. I'm with you: Sweden's approach to dealing with Covid-19 has been brilliant*


(* - if you ignore that they lost 10 times as many people as their two nearest geographical and cultural neighbours with the same size population, also ignore that Sweden's current social restrictions are more severe than Norway's and about on a par with Finland's and also ignore Sweden's economy has been the hardest hit of the three)

 

[Weststander]

If you want to know what's going to happen next with Covid in the UK, look at the graphs from France and Spain re their second spike, then double it.

Spain’s death toll per capita was higher than the UK’s, but both in the same ball park.

Why will our second spike be twice as severe as Spain’s?

Spain’s new cases today at 11,000, is far higher than the UK’s had been throughout.

The only scenario I can see where your optimistic prediction plays out, is where UK 16 to 30 year olds say fck it and completely regard the rules. Which could happen.

 

[Swansman]

New daily cases per million:
Denmark 55
Sweden 23
Finland 11
Norway 10

Deaths per million:
Sweden 571 (very close to the UK and Italy, not quite as bad as Spain .... all lambasted as CV19 disaster zones).
Denmark 108
Finland 61
Norway 49

If Sweden is the poster boy that proves lockdowns are unnecessary, that title comes with the loss of 40,000 lives (pro-rated to our population). Real people, real loved ones. Their lockdown neighbours didn’t suffer that tragedy.

Regarding care homes, that’s the story across Europe, it’s not bad luck or a misjudgement that befell Sweden alone. Half of CV19 deaths in Italy, France and Spain were in care homes.

First of all, about daily cases:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavi...g=7&pickerMetric=total_deaths&pickerSort=desc

Second: our strategy is long-term. As Tegnell has said multiple times: "judge our strategy in a year". We have a strategy to tackle this virus, not a week-to-week tactic. There is currently no way of knowing how things will develop in countries that locked down during the spring.

I realise that in a country run on a week-to-week basis, this concept of "long term" might be a difficult concept to grasp but regardless of that, we are more interested in "how many lives lost over this pandemic" rather than "how many lives lost today & tomorrow".

If there is another wave, there is a good chance we will be one of the least affected countries. And perhaps you think "well, we (or actually not you but Denmark, Norway and the other countries you pretend to be like) can just lockdown again and have great success again". Well, lets see if its that easy to have a lockdown until it gets warm again, or if it will be more difficult to have people accept it again.

Time will tell, but to already write off the Swedish strategy as a failure is just a defense mechanism to protect your fear. There is no way of knowing how it turns out in the end.

 

[Weststander]

First of all, about daily cases:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavi...g=7&pickerMetric=total_deaths&pickerSort=desc

Second: our strategy is long-term. As Tegnell has said multiple times: "judge our strategy in a year". We have a strategy to tackle this virus, not a week-to-week tactic. There is currently no way of knowing how things will develop in countries that locked down during the spring.

I realise that in a country run on a week-to-week basis, this concept of "long term" might be a difficult concept to grasp but regardless of that, we are more interested in "how many lives lost over this pandemic" rather than "how many lives lost today & tomorrow".

If there is another wave, there is a good chance we will be one of the least affected countries. And perhaps you think "well, we (or actually not you but Denmark, Norway and the other countries you pretend to be like) can just lockdown again and have great success again". Well, lets see if its that easy to have a lockdown until it gets warm again, or if it will be more difficult to have people accept it again.

Time will tell, but to already write off the Swedish strategy as a failure is just a defense mechanism to protect your fear. There is no way of knowing how it turns out in the end.

Not so clever attempt to rope the UK into a Nordic comparison. Sticking to the Nordic nations, we will see. At present Sweden has the same CV19 death rate as the worst in Europe bar Spain, whilst your neighbours have handled it brilliantly.

For your hopes to come true, Denmark, Finland and Norway are going to suffer badly from CV19 at some stage. Are their respected governments and scientists really going to allow that to happen?

 

[Swansman]

Not so clever attempt to rope the UK into a Nordic comparison. Sticking to the Nordic nations, we will see. At present Sweden has the same CV19 death rate as the worst in Europe bar Spain, whilst your neighbours have handled it brilliantly.

For your hopes to come true, Denmark, Finland and Norway are going to suffer badly from CV19 at some stage. Are their respected governments and scientists really going to allow that to happen?

The logical thing of evaluating the value of lockdowns is to compare lockdown countries with no lockdown countries. How can people say that our cultures are similar when the culture of Norway and Denmark was to be locked up in their apartments and our culture was to live on but more carefully?

You keep saying "at present", I keep saying "long term". Its like I said in my previous post - its like you cant grasp the concept of anything other than "at present". You say "look at the present", I say "there is more than the present".

I dont wish Denmark, Finland and Norway will suffer badly in the future, I say that there is a significantly higher risk that they will be worse affected by a second wave - something their scientists and governments mainly agree on.

And yes, I believe they this time around are far more likely to take the Swedish approach rather than going into lockdown again - even if the result is similar to what we had to experience here in April & May. Because developing immunity or at least resistance to this virus is a sustainable strategy whereas lockdown isnt.

 

[Weststander]

The logical thing of evaluating the value of lockdowns is to compare lockdown countries with no lockdown countries. How can people say that our cultures are similar when the culture of Norway and Denmark was to be locked up in their apartments and our culture was to live on but more carefully?

You keep saying "at present", I keep saying "long term". Its like I said in my previous post - its like you cant grasp the concept of anything other than "at present". You say "look at the present", I say "there is more than the present".

I dont wish Denmark, Finland and Norway will suffer badly in the future, I say that there is a significantly higher risk that they will be worse affected by a second wave - something their scientists and governments mainly agree on.

And yes, I believe they this time around are far more likely to take the Swedish approach rather than going into lockdown again - even if the result is similar to what we had to experience here in April & May. Because developing immunity or at least resistance to this virus is a sustainable strategy whereas lockdown isnt.

Tegnell won’t talk about herd immunity, so politics come into play even in Sweden. He deleted a stack of emails, uncovered by a journalist, where for example he appeared to ask whether a higher death rate among older people might be acceptable if it led to faster herd immunity.

At present the death toll is with the highest nations. By say next Spring, we’ll know which approach in the Nordic nations saved most lives.

 

[Swansman]

Tegnell won’t talk about herd immunity, so politics come into play even in Sweden. He deleted a stack of emails, uncovered by a journalist, where for example he appeared to ask whether a higher death rate among older people might be acceptable if it led to faster herd immunity.

At present the death toll is with the highest nations. By say next Spring, we’ll know which approach in the Nordic nations saved most lives.

Yes, he probably broke the "public access to official records" law by deleting those emails. Not good. He does talk quite a lot about herd immunty though.

And yes by next spring we should know... I hope. If countries keep going into full lockdown and no vaccine comes along, it could be the same story next year.

 

[Albion Dan]

what infrastructure would that be?

Promoters, nighttime economy venues, festival and event production, sound and light companies, theatre venues, musical theatre companies. All on the brink of going to the wall.

 

[Albion Dan]

New daily cases per million:
Denmark 55
Sweden 23
Finland 11
Norway 10

Deaths per million:
Sweden 571 (very close to the UK and Italy, not quite as bad as Spain .... all lambasted as CV19 disaster zones).
Denmark 108
Finland 61
Norway 49

If Sweden is the poster boy that proves lockdowns are unnecessary, that title comes with the loss of 40,000 lives (pro-rated to our population). Real people, real loved ones. Their lockdown neighbours didn’t suffer that tragedy.

Regarding care homes, that’s the story across Europe, it’s not bad luck or a misjudgement that befell Sweden alone. Half of CV19 deaths in Italy, France and Spain were in care homes.

Sweden have had the same death rate as us (it’s actually lower) but have had no lock down, not shut schools and devastated a generations education, haven’t had a disastrous situation where people with other illnesses haven’t had treatment or diagnosis, won’t have incurred the same levels of mental health issue, haven’t had to wear masks, have kept people in the hospitality industry employed without the level of billions of government bail out incurred by us, have kept all shops open throughout, and have also pretty much eradicated the virus. Just as we seem to be batoning down the hatches for round two.

I know where I’d rather be.

 

[Bozza]

Sweden have had the same death rate as us (it’s actually lower) but have had no lock down, not shut schools and devastated a generations education, haven’t had a disastrous situation where people with other illnesses haven’t had treatment or diagnosis, won’t have incurred the same levels of mental health issue, haven’t had to wear masks, have kept people in the hospitality industry employed without the level of billions of government bail out incurred by us, have kept all shops open throughout, and have also pretty much eradicated the virus. Just as we seem to be batoning down the hatches for round two.

I know where I’d rather be.

Apples and, oh I dunno, conkers.

UK population density: 275 people per square kilometer
Sweden population density: 25 people per square kilometer

In case the meaning of the above has passed you by: if a virus does best by passing from person to person, it will have a rip-roaring time when people are generally closer together. If Place A has 11 times more people in an area than Place B, a virus is going to love hanging out in Place A.

 

[Bozza]

I know where I’d rather be.

Happy to pay for the flight* BTW, and not just because they're dirt cheap right now.


(* - one way)

 

[portlock seagull]

Promoters, nighttime economy venues, festival and event production, sound and light companies, theatre venues, musical theatre companies. All on the brink of going to the wall.

It’s appalling what’s happening out there, depending on which sector you worked in. As more and more people join the scrap heap, the haves should start to get a bit concerned because guess what? The have nots ain’t going to just stand by and starve Or become homeless. There’s likely going to be a huge increase in social unrest and associated crime. A good friend of mine works for a ‘tech firm‘ and they are spunking big money on employee home working benefits, it’s actually quite obscene when others in different industries have lost everything in a matter of months. Scary. Shameful too. Got to do more to help these people. Got to become a more selfless society in my view.

 

[portlock seagull]

Apples and, oh I dunno, conkers.

UK population density: 275 people per square kilometer
Sweden population density: 25 people per square kilometer

In case the meaning of the above has passed you by: if a virus does best by passing from person to person, it will have a rip-roaring time when people are generally closer together. If Place A has 11 times more people in an area than Place B, a virus is going to love hanging out in Place A.

Made this point to a friend living in Austria who was getting a bit too smarmy when comparing us and them. I also added that culturally, Austrians were far better at just following orders...

 

[BadFish]

Apples and, oh I dunno, conkers.

UK population density: 275 people per square kilometer
Sweden population density: 25 people per square kilometer

In case the meaning of the above has passed you by: if a virus does best by passing from person to person, it will have a rip-roaring time when people are generally closer together. If Place A has 11 times more people in an area than Place B, a virus is going to love hanging out in Place A.

This, I am not sure why this difference isn't mentioned more often.

Surely this is one of the reasons New Zealand has had success and Australia has low cases.

 

[Acker79]

[tweet]1304178772971843586[/tweet]

 

[Albion Dan]

Apples and, oh I dunno, conkers.

UK population density: 275 people per square kilometer
Sweden population density: 25 people per square kilometer

In case the meaning of the above has passed you by: if a virus does best by passing from person to person, it will have a rip-roaring time when people are generally closer together. If Place A has 11 times more people in an area than Place B, a virus is going to love hanging out in Place A.

Cheap and flawed argument trotted out many times before. 15% of Sweden’s population live in Stockholm. I’m pretty sure theyre not enjoying a sq Km between 25 people. In fact 97% of Sweden is uninhabited. Your figure is totally unrealistic when considering where people live. In fact I believe Stockholm maybe be denser in population than London per sq Km. Just checked and indeed it is.

 

[The Clamp]

Only six in a dingy from Monday.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

In a dingy what?

 

[Megazone]

Cheap and flawed argument trotted out many times before. 15% of Sweden’s population live in Stockholm. I’m pretty sure theyre not enjoying a sq Km between 25 people. In fact 97% of Sweden is uninhabited. Your figure is totally unrealistic when considering where people live. In fact I believe Stockholm maybe be denser in population than London per sq Km. Just checked and indeed it is.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I thought London was one of the most densely populated cities in Europe? So what's the UK's population density per square KM if you take London out?

 

[The Clamp]

The government lost all credibility with the Barnard castle affair. They'll never get it back and any measures brought in will be met with derision. Once leaders lose the faith and respect of their followers, that's it, they can't get it back. Nothing they do or say will be heeded. And because of this, people will die.