[Football] Gary Lineker to step back from presenting MOTD

[Titanic]

Gary Lineker to step back from presenting MOTD

Gary Lineker to step back from presenting Match of the Day until agreement reached on social media use - BBC statement

www.bbc.co.uk

Gary Lineker is to step back from presenting Match of the Day until an agreement is reached on his social media use - BBC statement.
It follows an impartiality row over comments he made criticising the government's new asylum policy.
In a tweet, the presenter had compared the language used by the government to set out its plan to "that used by Germany in the 30s".

 

[Louis MacNeice]

A democratic country is governed by representatives who are elected by the people.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/democratic#:~:text=Something%20that%20is%20democratic%20is,democratically%20adverb

What 1933 was NOT was free and fair. Every historian pretty much agrees on that. But at that specific time Germany was not a dictatorship.

And so, to return to Lineker's point, what we have now is the Government calling anyone who disagrees with them unpatriotic, legislating to ban protest and requiring voter ID that will remove voting rights from the most disadvantaged groups of people.

Firstly, you talked about a democratic election. Do you really think that is an accurate description of a process (following the Reichstag fire and its aftermath) that involved the deployment of 50,000 Nazi stormtroopers and SS members in Prussia alone...really?

Secondly, the Nazi party did not gain a majority of either votes or seats, so the German people didn't vote them in.

As I said the word democratically was doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting, and in doing so creating an incredibly partial picture of what was happening at the time. Why you'd choose to stick with it is entirely up to you.

Of course you are right that our government is attempting to paint any opposition to them as unpatriotic and to limit the franchise in their own favour; both tactics which would not have been unfamiliar to the NSDAP.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Berty23]

All the massive overreaction is driven by the tories having nothing else to offer to win an election than culture wars. They spend so much time accusing others of starting culture wars that it has been obvious for ages that this is their play. Often with politicians you can see them projecting their views as pretending it is the opposition’s. This was also trump play book.

Here is the deputy party chairman explaining this.

 

[Wozza]

I find the comparison of the Gvt policies to Hitler’s Weimar Germany...

We've done this. Lineker didn't compare policies. He compared language.

This holocaust survivor had a problem with the government's language. Lineker was hardly the first to make the comparison...

A 'shameful' Suella Braverman video's trending - and the Home Office want it deleted

Suella Braverman, the home secretary who resigned from Liz Truss’ government over breaching the ministerial code before being all too happy to return to the position under Rishi Sunak’s government six days later, is back with another PR disaster.The Conservative MP for Fareham (near Portsmouth)...

www.indy100.com

 

[Jim in the West]

Firstly, you talked about a democratic election. Do you really think that is an accurate description of a process (following the Reichstag fire and its aftermath) that involved the deployment of 50,000 Nazi stormtroopers and SS members in Prussia alone...really?

Secondly, the Nazi party did not gain a majority of either votes or seats, so the German people didn't vote them in.

As I said the word democratically was doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting, and in doing so creating an incredibly partial picture of what was happening at the time. Why you'd choose to stick with it is entirely up to you.

Of course you are right that our government is attempting to paint any opposition to them as unpatriotic and to limit the franchise in their own favour; both tactics which would not have been unfamiliar to the NSDAP.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I'm not sure there's much point in arguing over the presence (or lack) of democracy in 1930s Germany. As has been pointed out many times, Lineker was referring to similarities in the language used by the government and that used in 30s Germany. It's pretty clear that there ARE similarities. The objectives are clearly different - the Tories' end game is not a holocaust. They need to win the next election. They can't fight it on any sort of normal criteria (the economy, public services, etc). They possibly hoped they may be able to use the Brexit card again, but Labour won't play ball. So they need to (a) find a group (or groups) of people to blame for all our ills, and they need to (b) manufacture an issue which will clearly put distance between themselves and the opposition.

The main group who are taking the flack for the last 13 years of chaos are IMMIGRANTS. They are swarming over here, taking our jobs, monopolising our health-care system, and raping our women (that's the rhetoric). And the issue they have chosen to fight on is the "Small boats problem".

So, they need to go heavy on the dehumanising language - they need to make sure that we see the various proposals (Rwanda, criminalisation of immigration, etc) as a justifiable response. Here, the use of language is similar to that used in 1930s Germany (even if ultimately the aims are, obviously, less extreme)

And they need to take drastic action, as pretty much everything they've tried in the past has failed.

Of course the problem with all of this is that the people who suffer are, in the main, victims of war, repression, persecution, etc. People with literally nothing. People who have no voice. People whose lives have already been torn apart through no fault of their own. That's why it's so evil, and that's why it's great that people like Lineker speak out. We should all be doing the same, regardless of our political views, although we obviously won't have the same reach and influence as GL. What our government is trying to do is abhorrent and (imho) we should be deeply, deeply ashamed.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I’ve stayed out of this discussion and ignored all the media storm, simply because I think there are other things going on in the world that is more deserving of my attention than the twitter feed of an ex-footballer/sports presenter.

However, speaking as a second generation Jew, whose Grandparents were both in Nazi concentration camps, I find the comparison of the Gvt policies to Hitler’s Weimar Germany insulting and a bit ignorant tbh.

The extermination of 5 million Jews, legitimate and rightful citizens of Germany, with businesses, professions, families already rooted in the Country can’t possibly be compared to Braverman’s immigration policies with regard to sending illegal immigrants to Rwanda who have crossed the Channel and entered the Country illegally. You don’t have to agree or disagree with the Gvts policies to recognise there’s no valid comparison of the fate of Jews under Hitler with how our present Govt is treating illegal immigrants.

If anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, then it’s the countries where these people are fleeing from - eg Assad’s regime, the Taliban, Myanmar or in the Sudan.

Our Gvts policies may arguably be contrary to international human rights legislation, lack compassion or simply be poorly thought out but what it is not is ethnic cleansing or coming close to advocating such.

Anyone who suggests such, needs a history lesson.

The comparison was the language used and it has obviously worked on you, because you are talking about sendiong illegal immigrants to Rwanda and entering the country illegally.

That statement is an out and out lie. I am not saying you are lying but you are repeating lies. Lies which are put out by the Home Office, used in newspapers frequently, and then get bandied about as true statements.

The truth is the truth is the truth. Sir Winston Churchill signed Britain up to the 1951 convention at the United Nations.
It is not illegal to come to Britain to claim asylum. Over 80% of the asylum seekers get their asylum granted. Others are rightly deported.

 

[Wozza]

Related. Here's the Tory deputy admitting that culture wars is a tactic.

 

[Berty23]

They ar

I’ve stayed out of this discussion and ignored all the media storm, simply because I think there are other things going on in the world that is more deserving of my attention than the twitter feed of an ex-footballer/sports presenter.

However, speaking as a second generation Jew, whose Grandparents were both in Nazi concentration camps, I find the comparison of the Gvt policies to Hitler’s Weimar Germany insulting and a bit ignorant tbh.

The extermination of 5 million Jews, legitimate and rightful citizens of Germany, with businesses, professions, families already rooted in the Country can’t possibly be compared to Braverman’s immigration policies with regard to sending illegal immigrants to Rwanda who have crossed the Channel and entered the Country illegally. You don’t have to agree or disagree with the Gvts policies to recognise there’s no valid comparison of the fate of Jews under Hitler with how our present Govt is treating illegal immigrants.

If anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, then it’s the countries where these people are fleeing from - eg Assad’s regime, the Taliban, Myanmar or in the Sudan.

Our Gvts policies may arguably be contrary to international human rights legislation, lack compassion or simply be poorly thought out but what it is not is ethnic cleansing or coming close to advocating such.

Anyone who suggests such, needs a history lesso

I’ve stayed out of this discussion and ignored all the media storm, simply because I think there are other things going on in the world that is more deserving of my attention than the twitter feed of an ex-footballer/sports presenter.

However, speaking as a second generation Jew, whose Grandparents were both in Nazi concentration camps, I find the comparison of the Gvt policies to Hitler’s Weimar Germany insulting and a bit ignorant tbh.

The extermination of 5 million Jews, legitimate and rightful citizens of Germany, with businesses, professions, families already rooted in the Country can’t possibly be compared to Braverman’s immigration policies with regard to sending illegal immigrants to Rwanda who have crossed the Channel and entered the Country illegally. You don’t have to agree or disagree with the Gvts policies to recognise there’s no valid comparison of the fate of Jews under Hitler with how our present Govt is treating illegal immigrants.

If anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, then it’s the countries where these people are fleeing from - eg Assad’s regime, the Taliban, Myanmar or in the Sudan.

Our Gvts policies may arguably be contrary to international human rights legislation, lack compassion or simply be poorly thought out but what it is not is ethnic cleansing or coming close to advocating such.

Anyone who suggests such, needs a history lesson.

Anyone who uses the term “illegal immigration” to describe people entering the country as a refugee who intends to claim asylum is wrong and needs a lesson in law. There is no such thing as illegal entry if claiming asylum. It is legal to enter a country however you can. Sadly the narrative from the government has confused people who think they have to follow certain routes.

It is like when they say “should claim asylum in the first safe country” which is also completely false.

 

[Berty23]

The comparison was the language used and it has obviously worked on you, because you are talking about sendiong illegal immigrants to Rwanda and entering the country illegally.

That statement is an out and out lie. I am not saying you are lying but you are repeating lies. Lies which are put out by the Home Office, used in newspapers frequently, and then get bandied about as true statements.

The truth is the truth is the truth. Sir Winston Churchill signed Britain up to the 1951 convention at the United Nations.
It is not illegal to come to Britain to claim asylum. Over 80% of the asylum seekers get their asylum granted. Others are rightly deported.






View attachment 158313

Sorry I relied before seeing this. This is obviously quite right. It is remarkable that people who get such basics wrong tell others to have a history lesson. But that is what the messaging is all about. Sadly it is working.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I'm not sure there's much point in arguing over the presence (or lack) of democracy in 1930s Germany. As has been pointed out many times, Lineker was referring to similarities in the language used by the government and that used in 30s Germany.

My only point was to challenge the oft repeated but dangerously lazy story that the German people democratically elected the Nazi party and Adolf Hitler.

We need to be clear on how regressive, anti-social, far right politics has gained power in the past if we are to avoid "enjoying' our own nationally and historically particular takes on it in the future.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Wozza]

Just spoke to my dad for the first time in a fortnight or so.

He mentioned Lineker within two minutes.

"Everyone" in Bexhill doesn't like him, apparently. (Not going to write what he actually said)

So that's that, then.

 

[Berty23]

Just spoke to my dad for the first time in a fortnight or so.

He mentioned Lineker within two minutes.

"Everyone" in Bexhill doesn't like him, apparently. (Not going to write what he actually said)

So that's that, then.

My dad was funny about it. He said “it is the problem now. Snowflakes mean free speech is dead”

I had to point out to him that it was his lot who were moaning about Lineker using his free speech. He then said “only because he was moaning about the Home Secretary”

For context. His mum (Slovakian) and dad (polish them but now the town he was from is Ukraine) fled the Nazis and Russians in the Second World War. Now he is siding with closing the borders to refugees. It is nuts.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You know what they say young man, “Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.”

Isn't it great news that this has all been sorted now, the focus can go on real news now?

In my case it's mostly that I'm to busy to edit it into 'polite'. A version of 'I didn't have enough time to be succinct' (a stock in trade of a windbag colleague of mine).

Agree with your second point

 

[AlbionBro]

what do you think the tories next move will be to control the public's access to imformation?

I wouldn't have a clue what they will do, why, what do you think they will do?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Too much generalisation in society. So many issues not being addressed. The complete and deliberate lack of opportunity in sport ( particularly football ) for Asian men and women. The underlying torrent of anti-semitic feeling that still exists, especially in the corridors of power. The abuse of the universal credit system. The complete disregard for the overmanning within the NHS and the need to totally reform. The appalling decisions in education that successive governments have been allowed to get away, resulting in generations of kids being sold false expectations in life.
No fcking accountability at political level. How the fcking hell were two banks, institutionally corrupt, bailed out and rescued with tax payers money, when they should have been allowed to wither and die. How the hell was the expenses scandal ( THEY ALL HAD THEIR NOSES IN THE TROUGH ) brushed under the carpet. How the fcking hell did we allow our gold reserve to be sold off? Thatcherism bred greed, selfishness and a lack of concern for our country, creating a whole social underclass, who felt detached, unloved and poor. Industry decimated and an open invitation for Germany and Japan to come and help themselves. We lost our economic balance. Too much service, not enough manufacturing. We have never recovered.
Geez....I need my morning walk....blood pressure rising too much.

I agree with most of that, albeit I might apply a little light and shade in different places.

Unlike you perhaps I am someone who, despite the present 'government', consider that the general trajectory is a good one.

Compared with the 1970s...on average (there are large and obvious outliers and exceptions):

People are cleaner, fresher and better fed.

Women don't expect to have their arse slapped/pinched at work....every day.

No longer are all black people who mix with a while majority people subjected to racial abuse ('just bantz') on most days.

No longer can the old bill give any 'layabout' a shoeing for nothing and expect to get away with it

No longer do almost all the middle class look down their noses at almost all the working class.

No longer are there police 'no go areas' in any town with a large working class population.

And we live much longer.


But.....your sort of perspective is essential if we are to continue to progress, and not sink into degeneration, feral, stinking and living short and brutish lives.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’ve stayed out of this discussion and ignored all the media storm, simply because I think there are other things going on in the world that is more deserving of my attention than the twitter feed of an ex-footballer/sports presenter.

However, speaking as a second generation Jew, whose Grandparents were both in Nazi concentration camps, I find the comparison of the Gvt policies to Hitler’s Weimar Germany insulting and a bit ignorant tbh.

The extermination of 5 million Jews, legitimate and rightful citizens of Germany, with businesses, professions, families already rooted in the Country can’t possibly be compared to Braverman’s immigration policies with regard to sending illegal immigrants to Rwanda who have crossed the Channel and entered the Country illegally. You don’t have to agree or disagree with the Gvts policies to recognise there’s no valid comparison of the fate of Jews under Hitler with how our present Govt is treating illegal immigrants.

If anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, then it’s the countries where these people are fleeing from - eg Assad’s regime, the Taliban, Myanmar or in the Sudan.

Our Gvts policies may arguably be contrary to international human rights legislation, lack compassion or simply be poorly thought out but what it is not is ethnic cleansing or coming close to advocating such.

Anyone who suggests such, needs a history lesson.

You have made a series of errors with that assessment, as others have explained.

The conservatives would love to be able to claim (as many have already done) that a BBC employee has compared the current government with Nazi Germany. It has seeded in the mind of many that Lineker has suggested that the Tories want to treat 'illegal' immigrants like Hitler treated your forbears.

I'd strongly encourage you to step back from that because it is all false. It is an easy mistake to make, however. I have found in recent years (after the demise of May) that when government and their supporters speak it is safest to assume, in the first instance, that they are lying. In recent years this usually turns out to be the correct assumption.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Related. Here's the Tory deputy admitting that culture wars is a tactic.

Doesn't mean its not real or its something instigated by the tories, problem with that shtik is it began in the USA.

 

[Hugo Rune]

My only point was to challenge the oft repeated but dangerously lazy story that the German people democratically elected the Nazi party and Adolf Hitler.

We need to be clear on how regressive, anti-social, far right politics has gained power in the past if we are to avoid "enjoying' our own nationally and historically particular takes on it in the future.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Dangerously lazy?

Back to the history books for young Louis.

Firstly, you talked about a democratic election. Do you really think that is an accurate description of a process (following the Reichstag fire and its aftermath) that involved the deployment of 50,000 Nazi stormtroopers and SS members in Prussia alone...really?

Secondly, the Nazi party did not gain a majority of either votes or seats, so the German people didn't vote them in.

As I said the word democratically was doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting, and in doing so creating an incredibly partial picture of what was happening at the time. Why you'd choose to stick with it is entirely up to you.

Of course you are right that our government is attempting to paint any opposition to them as unpatriotic and to limit the franchise in their own favour; both tactics which would not have been unfamiliar to the NSDAP.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

It’s naïve historical relativity to claim that the Nazi party did not get a majority of seats as some kind of valid argument. I’ve gone back into the 1800’s and no German party EVER got a majority. Germany always had coalition Governments. They had 6+ big parties vying for power, nothing like the 2 party FPTP system we have in the UK now.

The fire at the Reichstag was what arguably killed democracy in 1930’s Germany. But Hitler had got the votes before then. Millions and millions of them.

What Hitler did get was a larger percentage of the popular vote in the July 1932 Germany election than call me Dave got in his 2015 election win. The Germans were desperate but they fell for his ‘language’. He was one of the greatest (by that I mean most effective) political orators in History. A master of language, tone and speeches. A genius maybe. You need those skills to brainwash a nation. This was a genuine democratic election although I concede that his thugs were battling communist thugs.

 

[Bakero]

Has Lawro's take on this been posted on here yet? No love lost there.

 

[BadFish]

I'm not sure there's much point in arguing over the presence (or lack) of democracy in 1930s Germany. As has been pointed out many times, Lineker was referring to similarities in the language used by the government and that used in 30s Germany. It's pretty clear that there ARE similarities. The objectives are clearly different - the Tories' end game is not a holocaust. They need to win the next election. They can't fight it on any sort of normal criteria (the economy, public services, etc). They possibly hoped they may be able to use the Brexit card again, but Labour won't play ball. So they need to (a) find a group (or groups) of people to blame for all our ills, and they need to (b) manufacture an issue which will clearly put distance between themselves and the opposition.

The main group who are taking the flack for the last 13 years of chaos are IMMIGRANTS. They are swarming over here, taking our jobs, monopolising our health-care system, and raping our women (that's the rhetoric). And the issue they have chosen to fight on is the "Small boats problem".

So, they need to go heavy on the dehumanising language - they need to make sure that we see the various proposals (Rwanda, criminalisation of immigration, etc) as a justifiable response. Here, the use of language is similar to that used in 1930s Germany (even if ultimately the aims are, obviously, less extreme)

And they need to take drastic action, as pretty much everything they've tried in the past has failed.

Of course the problem with all of this is that the people who suffer are, in the main, victims of war, repression, persecution, etc. People with literally nothing. People who have no voice. People whose lives have already been torn apart through no fault of their own. That's why it's so evil, and that's why it's great that people like Lineker speak out. We should all be doing the same, regardless of our political views, although we obviously won't have the same reach and influence as GL. What our government is trying to do is abhorrent and (imho) we should be deeply, deeply ashamed.

They also need to try and convince everyone that the fault of this issue lays at someone else's door despite them having been in power for 13 year. Despite them repeatedly claiming to be the only party to tackle the 'problem'.

Stoke up the culture wars to blame the 'lefty snowflakes' and make sure that the hard of thinking believe that anyone disagreeing with them are unpatriotic etc etc. I mean this massive leap of logic can't work! Can it?

 

[Wozza]

Has Lawro's take on this been posted on here yet? No love lost there.

Bitter old man.