Firle

[goldstone]

Went to Firle yesterday. First time for many years. Had a walk around the village and a pint sitting outside the pub (where I believe Bob Copper was interviewed in the BBC TV programme about his life).

It's like travelling through a time warp. Could have been in the fifties apart from the modern cars.

As far as I could see there is not one new house in the village ... fantastic ... how do they manage to prevent any kind of development? And it still has a Post Office and a pub.

And people greeted you in the street as though they meant it.

I was really impressed. A Sussex village as it is meant to be. Are there any others that have avoided development to the same degree?

And a question. On the Ordnance Survey map it's shown as Firle. On many other maps it's shown as West Firle. Which is it? And where is (or was) East Firle?

Haven't I seen somewhere that it is the home of a certain Lord Bracknell? If so I'm sure he can answer my questions.

 

[Screaming J]

And a question. On the Ordnance Survey map it's shown as Firle. On many other maps it's shown as West Firle. Which is it? And where is (or was) East Firle?

I think East Firle is what the houses on the other side of Firle Place from Firle village used to be called. They are near that Tower that sticks up that you can see if you are walking along the S Downs Way towards Berwick and Alfriston (which I presume is some sort of folly and which I think you can now rent out for holidays.)

Now E Firle is known as (....hunts for OS map....) Heighton Street.

 

[Timbo]

Funnily enough I was talking to the head gardener of Firle Place last week, I believe the owner of Firle Place owns an awful lot of houses in the area and rents them out for a pittence if you take part in village life or have kids at the local school, despite the fact that when he inherited Firle Place he was broke and only came up with the goods thanks to selling one of the paintings in FP for x amount of millions.

 

[goldstone]

I think East Firle is what the houses on the other side of Firle Place from Firle village used to be called. They are near that Tower that sticks up that you can see if you are walking along the S Downs Way towards Berwick and Alfriston (which I presume is some sort of folly and which I think you can now rent out for holidays.)

Now E Firle is known as (....hunts for OS map....) Heighton Street.

I had never seen the tower before. I guess you can only see it from the Downs side and not from the A27.

Just found Heighton on my OS map. Makes sense that it was once East Firle. Wonder when the name disappeared?

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Don't think it is Heighton Street as its on record as being called that since 13th century. A book I've got suggests a disappeared village near the current Charleston farm. The earliest record for the name West Firle was 1255. As to its disappearance could be anything from the villagers upping sticks and moving elsewhere, being evicted by landlords, the Black Death or other medieval catastrophes. As it had no church and was a hamlet it could well have consisted of a farm and a few labourers cottages or shacks.

 

[Screaming J]

Don't think it is Heighton Street as its on record as being called that since 13th century. A book I've got suggests a disappeared village near the current Charleston farm.

Hmm, the plot thickens. I quote from 'The E Sussex Village Book' by Rupert Taylor (who was a year above me at Priory School.; not that that is relevant!):-

"There was an East Firle once, a vanished village known by the alternative name of Heighton St Clere".

And of course there is a South Heighton not far away down the dip slope of the Downs near Newhaven.

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

When I was a young window cleaner I did the windows (badly) at firle Place and met the late Viscount Gage

It was like going back in time, right down to the gay butler!.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Hmm, the plot thickens. I quote from 'The E Sussex Village Book' by Rupert Taylor (who was a year above me at Priory School.; not that that is relevant!):-

"There was an East Firle once, a vanished village known by the alternative name of Heighton St Clere".

And of course there is a South Heighton not far away down the dip slope of the Downs near Newhaven.

And South Heighton was named specifically to differentiate itself from Heighton Street.

To quote Judith Glover in Sussex Place Names:

First recorded around 1150 as Hiectona, becoming Heighton in 1262, and at one time had the alternative name Heighton St Cleres (1422) after John de Sancto Claro who had held the manor there in 1347

The same book has Firle identified as West Ferle in 1255 having been plain Ferles in the Domesday Book of 1086.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

It doesn't necessarily have to be near either, West Blatchington (Hove) and East Blatchington (Seaford), East and West Grinstead, Upper and Lower Beeding were all named to differentiate them from each other despite the fact they're not neighbours. In fact East Guldeford near Rye was given the East to differentiate itself from Guildford in Surrey.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

It doesn't necessarily have to be near either, West Blatchington (Hove) and East Blatchington (Seaford), East and West Grinstead, Upper and Lower Beeding were all named to differentiate them from each other despite the fact they're not neighbours. In fact East Guldeford near Rye was given the East to differentiate itself from Guildford in Surrey.

So what does 'Gulde' mean then?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

How long have I got?

Having lived in Firle for over thirty years, there's a lot I could say. In that time, there's probably even been something interesting that has happened here. But I can't quite remember. It might have been at Glynde.

I'll stick to answering the questions that have been raised.

The main reason that they manage to keep development in check is quite simple. Almost the whole of the village (and beyond - down to Alciston and parts of Berwick) is owned by the Firle Estate (Lord Gage, prop.) None of the three Lords in my time have favoured new housing - so it simply doesn't happen. Most local residents are tenants of the Estate - although only a minority now work for the Estate - and the Estate takes some effort to ensure that a good proportion of the tenants will send their kids to the local primary school. That said, there are a number of owner occupiers around, some of them living in houses that the Estate has sold off over the past thirty years. The place I live in was originally a smallholder's cottage and, later, a railway cottage, sold by the Estate (I think) to the LBSCR back in the 1840s.

"East" Firle is a bit of a mystery. I go for the explanation that it was somewhere along Heighton Street and was abandoned after the Black Death. The current village was officially called West Firle, up until the 1940s, when it changed to Firle. Maps haven't kept pace with this change, though.

The Tower was built as a Gamekeeper's observation tower, for keeping watch against the threat of poachers (who at the time it was built were usually locals who didn't seem to understand the natural order of things - ie the pheasants belonged to Lord Gage, not them).

As for the current Lord Gage being "broke", I can't say I've noticed. He does have a rather fine collection of paintings, though - including the largest Van Dyke painting in the world (which, I believe, is insured for more than the value of Firle Place).

One other interesting FACT:- Firle Cricket Club is 250 years old this year. Not quite the oldest in the country, but close.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

home

 

[desprateseagull]

is the cider/wine farmshop still going? had several boozy bike rides back from there, when i were a lad..

 

[Lord Bracknell]

is the cider/wine farmshop still going? had several boozy bike rides back from there, when i were a lad..

Oh yes.

It's a good place to live next to.

middle farm - the finest food and drink from the British countryside, open farm, visitors welcome, sussex, www.middlefarm.co.uk

 

[Timbo]

As for the current Lord Gage being "broke", I can't say I've noticed. He does have a rather fine collection of paintings, though - including the largest Van Dyke painting in the world (which, I believe, is insured for more than the value of Firle Place).

Apparently, when he inherited Firle Place it was in bad need of an awful lot of work so rather than sell off property, one painting was sold for £15m of which £9m was spent on upkeep, which really doesn't surprise me looking at the size of the place. The latest Lord probably doesn't help himself by renting out cottages in one of the most desirable places in Sussex for 300 quid a month!

When it was built, the stone was shipped from France, sailed up the Ouse and a canal specially built up to the lake that currently sits in the grounds.

 

[goldstone]

How long have I got?

Having lived in Firle for over thirty years, there's a lot I could say. In that time, there's probably even been something interesting that has happened here. But I can't quite remember. It might have been at Glynde.

I'll stick to answering the questions that have been raised.

The main reason that they manage to keep development in check is quite simple. Almost the whole of the village (and beyond - down to Alciston and parts of Berwick) is owned by the Firle Estate (Lord Gage, prop.) None of the three Lords in my time have favoured new housing - so it simply doesn't happen. Most local residents are tenants of the Estate - although only a minority now work for the Estate - and the Estate takes some effort to ensure that a good proportion of the tenants will send their kids to the local primary school. That said, there are a number of owner occupiers around, some of them living in houses that the Estate has sold off over the past thirty years. The place I live in was originally a smallholder's cottage and, later, a railway cottage, sold by the Estate (I think) to the LBSCR back in the 1840s.

"East" Firle is a bit of a mystery. I go for the explanation that it was somewhere along Heighton Street and was abandoned after the Black Death. The current village was officially called West Firle, up until the 1940s, when it changed to Firle. Maps haven't kept pace with this change, though.

The Tower was built as a Gamekeeper's observation tower, for keeping watch against the threat of poachers (who at the time it was built were usually locals who didn't seem to understand the natural order of things - ie the pheasants belonged to Lord Gage, not them).

As for the current Lord Gage being "broke", I can't say I've noticed. He does have a rather fine collection of paintings, though - including the largest Van Dyke painting in the world (which, I believe, is insured for more than the value of Firle Place).

One other interesting FACT:- Firle Cricket Club is 250 years old this year. Not quite the oldest in the country, but close.

Thank you, Lord B, most interesting.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Apparently, when he inherited Firle Place it was in bad need of an awful lot of work so rather than sell off property, one painting was sold for £15m of which £9m was spent on upkeep, which really doesn't surprise me looking at the size of the place. The latest Lord probably doesn't help himself by renting out cottages in one of the most desirable places in Sussex for 300 quid a month!

When it was built, the stone was shipped from France, sailed up the Ouse and a canal specially built up to the lake that currently sits in the grounds.

A slight (but important) correction ...

The current Lord Gage didn't "inherit" Firle Place, in the normal meaning of the word. He only inherited the title (from his brother). Firle Place is owned by The Trustees of The Firle Estate Settlement. As has been the case for several generations of the Gage family, Lord Gage occupies Firle Place as a tenant of the Trustees.

The business of the Trustees and the day to day running of the Estate are managed by Firle Management Ltd, and Smiths Gore.

Lord Gage is, of course, one of the Trustees and has a great deal of influence over the management of the Estate. And he derives a lot of benefit from it. But the suggestion that he's "not helping himself" by renting out property at below the current market levels of rent carries an implication that he personally has the option of raising rents. He hasn't. The Trustees are bound by the terms of the original Trust Settlement, which imposes obligations to continue managing the village as an Estate Village.

It's all incredibly complicated, and an anachronism. But it delivers affordable housing to local people, and gives a character to the community, rather more effectively than is the case in other Sussex villages.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

So what does 'Gulde' mean then?

In this case East Guldeford was created around 1510 by a landowner Robert de Guldeford, i.e Robert of Guldeford, and named after himself. The spelling is due to scribes translating phonetically.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

"East" Firle is a bit of a mystery. I go for the explanation that it was somewhere along Heighton Street and was abandoned after the Black Death. The current village was officially called West Firle, up until the 1940s, when it changed to Firle. Maps haven't kept pace with this change, though.

I'd be careful of blaming the Black Death as it is not always the case. As there seems to be no church then East Firle may well have consisted of a farm and a couple of cottages/shacks, easy to clear if the landowner wants to do something else with his land. The name Heighton, 'farm on high ground' and its location next to the small hillock containing Firle Tower suggests that settlement has long had that name. It could well be to the south following the old medieval road to Alfrsiton.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I'd be careful of blaming the Black Death as it is not always the case. As there seems to be no church then East Firle may well have consisted of a farm and a couple of cottages/shacks, easy to clear if the landowner wants to do something else with his land. The name Heighton, 'farm on high ground' and its location next to the small hillock containing Firle Tower suggests that settlement has long had that name. It could well be to the south following the old medieval road to Alfrsiton.

What is absolutely certain is that the area has been inhabited for a very long time. Ivan Margery's book, Roman Ways in the Weald gives a lot of information about the very ancient road system in the area, but there's still a lot of archaeology that has never been done. Firle village itself appears to be "ancient" and "unchanged", but it was reshaped during an agricultural boom in the nineteenth century and there are whole areas of the older village that have disappeared from sight.