FA Commission report - the plan to save English football = B Teams

[Triggaaar]

I'm surprised you're all so against it, without much debate.

They're using the situation in Germany as a case study for why the B team thing is a good idea.

Only problem is that Germany are thinking about scrapping it and sending players on loan instead as they are too expensive and the gap between the Bundesliga and the lower league level B teams play is too big. It has also all but killed football below the third division

Maybe the gap on our leagues isn't as big. And German football does seem to be doing well.

I made the point on the other thread about it (when it was rumoured) that football clubs need fans - how many people are going to go and watch - for instance - Bolton B v Burnley B? Teams are about the fans, not necessarily about players.

Good point. Maybe there should be rules that the teams have to have a certain level of support to be allowed to enter. League 1 sides don't want to be playing in empty stadiums. The top teams have so many fans that can't affor to go and watch, I'm sure they'd have loads of fans that would go to see their B side, particularly if it's only £10 a ticket. Bolton aren't in the premier league, so couldn't have a B team, and Burnley don't have enough young English players to field a B side.

It is disgusting that an organisation that represents football at all levels has jumped into bed with the premier league and put forward proposals that would destroy the league tradition. Shame on you the FA

Have you even stopped to think how it could work, and benefit the English game?

How would that work - three B teams disappearing as the parent club is relegated to be replaced by new ones every year?

The clubs that can put out B teams are not usually the ones threatened with relegation. In the rare event the first team is relegated, it wouldn't be difficult to give them a year or two to regain premier league status before their B team is removed for the league.

And what happens if a B team won a league shortly before being 'disappeared' - would the new club 'inherit' the promotion or be forced to start again in League 3?

Newly promoted premier league clubs wouldn't immediately have a B team, but yes, B teams would start in League 3.

Looks like this would only benefit the ten (or less) clubs that are more or less guaranteed Premier League football (and therefore League football for the B team), not even all Prem clubs.

Yes it would. But it would also benefit young English players.

If there is such an abundance of academy players not getting enough competitive games, the simple solution is to loan them out to clubs in lower divisions and subsidise their apprenticeships, so that the foster club can stay within FFP.

If the B teams can't play in the championship, then they may well need to loan players out to get the best experience before they're premier league ready. But not that many clubs play the style of football the top clubs want their young talent to be playing, so maybe there is a place for some skillful, yet lightweight, B teams.

I haven’t read the report but does anyone know what will happen to the B Teams if they get promoted four times, will we end up with Liverpool A playing Liverpool B?[/QUOTE]The proposal is that they're not allowed to be promoted to the Championship, so they stay in L1.

I'm not in favour of it, I'd just like to listen to the proposals and understand what would happen, rather than assume it's a bad idea from the start.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Can it really happen? Everybody with an interest in football outside the top ten clubs will be up in arms about it, with the armchair "Buckinghamshire reds" types totally indifferent.

Utter tail-wagging-the-dog bollocks that makes you wonder how the people at the FA ever got into a position to run the national game.

It's a terrible idea and has been received the same way on the spurs forums I look at as it as on here.

"If any of you think the primary purpose of the lge system is to develop talent for the top teams, then I politely request you **** off and watch a sport like American football"

Pick of the comments

 

[symyjym]

They are not allowed to be promoted above league 1 under the current proposals

Thanks, so they want to get players to play competitive football in a competition, in an uncompetitive way, against part timers.

I wonder if we would have got Lingard under these proposals.

 

[mjking73]

Questions?

1. Promotion/relegation - what will happen?
2. Waht wil happen to the other 14 Conference teams etc. and the rest of non-league pyramid.
3. Would B teams play in cups Manure B v Shrewsbury - classic FA cup tie!

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Wouldn't be shocked if they planned to get rangers and Celtic in during the re-jigging

 

[Seasider78]

I'm surprised you're all so against it, without much debate.

Have you even stopped to think how it could work, and benefit the English game?

.

Yes I have thanks and I am struggling to think who benefits from this other than premier league clubs or the national side. This proposal is fine if you are in the PL or are one of the few people left who give a toss about the England team but what about the other league clubs. This would devalue those leagues and the years of history and tradition of the clubs who populate them.

I would welcome a move of more players being loaned out into these existing clubs from the premier league as it would help distribute the wealth and quality amongst the divisions.

Unless someone can suggest how this move can in anyway benefit the clubs in those leagues then I stand by my original point that I cannot believe an institution that represents football in this country can come up with such a narrow minded and self interested proposal

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes I have thanks and I am struggling to think who benefits from this other than premier league clubs or the national side. This proposal is fine if you are in the PL or are one of the few people left who give a toss about the England team

I don't see what's wrong with benefiting the national side. The reason no one gives a shit about the England team any more, is because it's shit. If it was good, you can bet your balls the country would be going mad for it.

but what about the other league clubs. This would devalue those leagues and the years of history and tradition of the clubs who populate them.

Exactly how would it devalue them? Many smaller clubs would get the chance to go to some of the best grounds in the country, with large crowds (if that was part of the deal).

 

[Triggaaar]

Questions?

1. Promotion/relegation - what will happen?
2. Waht wil happen to the other 14 Conference teams etc. and the rest of non-league pyramid.
3. Would B teams play in cups Manure B v Shrewsbury - classic FA cup tie!

1 - they get promoted/relegated. But can't be promoted into the Championship.
2 - I haven't seen the proposed new structure.
3 - They wouldn't be able to enter the cups.

 

[Black Rod]

This proposal is fine if you are in the PL or are one of the few people left who give a toss about the England team but what about the other league clubs.

Well, that is what Dyke and his commission have been asked to do. Find a way to improve the England side so it can challenge for honours so in reality it is actually quite a good idea. People moan and moan about how bad England are but as soon as somebody tries to do something to arrest the decline, they are against that as well.

If people want a national side that can win a World Cup, something has to change. Tradition v progress. And it shows how far our of love the nation has fallen with England that the overwhelming response is that this is an awful idea

 

[Seasider78]

I don't see what's wrong with benefiting the national side. The reason no one gives a shit about the England team any more, is because it's shit. If it was good, you can bet your balls the country would be going mad for it.

Exactly how would it devalue them? Many smaller clubs would get the chance to go to some of the best grounds in the country, with large crowds (if that was part of the deal).

Brazil do fairly well internationally yet have most of their players in Europe so I don't understand this obsession with English players having to feature domestically. Personally I like the mix of nationalities in our league system it's one of the things that makes it so great.

If we want more players and a better national team they are not going to achieve this by having more game time against Yeovil and Chesterfield. The answer is in the development of higher quality technical players in our academies. This is working and look no further than Southampton for a model that is developing home grown talent that the top clubs are chasing

I think this move devalues the leagues as when promoted other sides are going to slip down the divisions as they do not have the resources or scouting networks to compete against the top PL sides and academies.

Perhaps partnering with these clubs would be a better model that essentially sticking reserve teams into the league system

 

[Black Rod]

Perhaps partnering with these clubs would be a better model that essentially sticking reserve teams into the league system

The trouble with partnering is how far do you go? One of the arguments is that the loan system isn't beneficial as you send a young player out to a different team with a different style of play, he comes back with experience but is completely unprepared for the way that your side play and as a result it makes it isn't any easier for him to break in. Take Shamir Goodwin for example - is a loan spell of hoof ball at Torquay battling relegation really going to help him be prepared to come in and play our patient, passing style?

The big clubs want total control of style, tactics etc to ensure that if a player is getting experience, it is the right thing. 8 Man City players going to Oldham and playing the Oldham way won't help them when they come back to Man City. That is why the B system works so well in Spain, as Barca B will play the same as the youth sides and the first team so it is more of a seamless transition

 

[Seasider78]

Well, that is what Dyke and his commission have been asked to do. Find a way to improve the England side so it can challenge for honours so in reality it is actually quite a good idea. People moan and moan about how bad England are but as soon as somebody tries to do something to arrest the decline, they are against that as well.

If people want a national side that can win a World Cup, something has to change. Tradition v progress. And it shows how far our of love the nation has fallen with England that the overwhelming response is that this is an awful idea

So the answer is to improve the England side matter what the impact on the rest of the game. You do know the FA are not just there to protect the national team?

If England want a better national side they need better players and that comes from first class coaching and scouting. If the players are not good enough no amount of lower league football is going to get them to make the grade.

Look at the league now the top English talent is already in the first team. Barkley, Wiltshire, Shaw, lallana, Rodriguez. We should be looking at how we got these players to where they are through the academies.

Good players make it to the first team regardless of nationality

 

[Scoffers]

Twittersphere is full of naysayers, one of my favourites is:-

Paul Hayward ‏@_PaulHayward 18m Only in England could the Football League chairman sit on a commission whose proposals are rejected by...the Football League.



From what I can see this does nothing for anything other than furthering the cause of the big clubs at the expense of the little clubs.

If you want to join the SAY NO campaign, check this out:-

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-football-association-say-no-to-b-teams

 

[Triggaaar]

Brazil do fairly well internationally yet have most of their players in Europe so I don't understand this obsession with English players having to feature domestically.

Brazil's population is about 4 times ours. I'm sure they play a lot of football there too, with plenty of opportunity for talent to develop. It would be fine if our players were all wanted in Spain, Italy and Germany, but they're not. We're lucky to have great leagues here, and can use that to give our young players experience. We'd still have plenty of foreign talent to admire.

I think this move devalues the leagues as when promoted other sides are going to slip down the divisions as they do not have the resources or scouting networks to compete against the top PL sides and academies.

It depends on the proposed structure, and the number of premier clubs that would field a B team.

 

[Seasider78]

The trouble with partnering is how far do you go? One of the arguments is that the loan system isn't beneficial as you send a young player out to a different team with a different style of play, he comes back with experience but is completely unprepared for the way that your side play and as a result it makes it isn't any easier for him to break in. Take Shamir Goodwin for example - is a loan spell of hoof ball at Torquay battling relegation really going to help him be prepared to come in and play our patient, passing style?

The big clubs want total control of style, tactics etc to ensure that if a player is getting experience, it is the right thing. 8 Man City players going to Oldham and playing the Oldham way won't help them when they come back to Man City. That is why the B system works so well in Spain, as Barca B will play the same as the youth sides and the first team so it is more of a seamless transition

Fine let then have a reserve league then why does this need to come into the football league?

 

[Black Rod]

So the answer is to improve the England side matter what the impact on the rest of the game. You do know the FA are not just there to protect the national team?

The national team being successful is the quickest way for them to make money. And all the time they have a massive mortgage to pay off on Wembley, that is all that will matter to them. An unfortunate fact of life

 

[Billy the Fish]

It'll never happen. Fron the reaction so far it's been universally slated by the media, ex pros, fans, lower league clubs and there's no indication that the premier league or the top clubs are interested in this particular format.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Just read the document and there's more questions than answers to the problem.

Introducing a B team into the league will be be a massive undertaking by some clubs, not the rich sugar daddy clubs but the middle of the road clubs. The expectation of using a local smaller stadium (costs of updating) or building a purpose built stadium and the problems that could encounter.

The conflict of interest between senior club and partner club. A change in manager could result in the senior club pulling out of the agreement leaving the partner club in the s**t.

The Premiership and Championship clubs are expected to pay for all this with extra payments going down the pyramid. What a great idea but unlikely.

Most Championship clubs are losing money hand over fist. Most middle to lower Premiership clubs are frightened of relegation and the cost. They are unlikely to be able to afford to subsidise lower league teams to the extent expected.

Where does it leave the development of players owned by lower league clubs and their ability to sell on these players, seen as life blood for many?

We have seen for years the main reason many clubs opt for foreign players is cost even down the leagues. British players demand higher fees.

What's or where is the incentive for foreign owned clubs, with their demand of instant success, going to come from. Add to this the amount of foreign managers/coaches in the top levels where's their incentive to help develop home talent when they've got the board on their backs.

All the way down the leagues wages are stupidly high and until this is addressed clubs will have their hands tied. Problem is all the time the Man Citys of this world are prepared to bankroll success it will not change.

None of this has taken into account the feelings of lower league clubs and more importantly the supporters.

What's it all for?

So we can watch a competitive England play a few times a year and perhaps compete in a competition finals every two. Is it worth it? I'd say most supporters are pretty much not bothered about England but want their own team to be the best.

 

[The Large One]

Worth looking at this article from seven years ago about problems with B Teams in Germany.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

 

[Black Rod]

Fine let then have a reserve league then why does this need to come into the football league?

The Premier League's favoured proposal was the PL2, which was exactly that. It would be televised, run just like the current Premier League and of a higher standard than the current reserve set up. Which could be even more damaging to the pyramid as you'd have to presume sponsorship and television companies would be far more interested in that league than spending their money on the Conference and possibly even Leagues One and Two. You could certainly market the future stars of Manchester United taking on the future stars of Arsenal to far more people than Morecambe v Accrington.