[Other Sport] F1 nonsense

[Geestar]

What, to see one team allow another to win because the FA tell them to?

Another team?

Who exactly is struggling to understand that then?

You by the looks of things.

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[drew]

Why? How does the fact that cycling is arguably similar invalidate what I'm saying? F1 is shit. Fact,

So you don't like F1, suspect you probably never have because team orders have been part of it for decades.

 

[Simster]

Another team? You by the looks of things.

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Er, no. I just think it's shite.

 

[Triggaaar]

I tell you what though: despite team orders, Lewis Hamilton could have done far more for his reputation and standing if he had come onto the radio and said he was going to ignore instructions and let Bottas come past him to take the win.

He would still almost certainly have won the World Championship and even if he didn't, again, his reputation would only have improved if this incident turned out to be the reason why.

If he was minded to do that, he'd be better letting Bottas take a win from him nearer the end of the season, once the Championship is already won. And let everyone know that in advance of the race, so people don't lose out with their bets.

To lose the Championship (which could happen) because of being chivalrous to his team-mate would be pretty stupid, and piss off the whole team.

 

[Geestar]

Er, no. I just think it's shite.

That's fine, then forget about it and don't worry yourself then. There are plenty of sports I think are shite but I don't concern myself with them, I certainly wouldn't start a thread about them.

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[Guy Fawkes]

Surprised no one has mentioned yet that if Bottas and Hamilton had been left to race it out for the victory rather than team orders coming into play, there would have been a chance that they crash into each other and take both cars out of the race, handing victory to Vettel and scoring zero championship and constructors points. The team took the lowest risk approach to this by ordering the drivers not to race each other and deciding their finishing order themselves through these team orders

Plenty of other sports engineer parts of their set up and the practice is widely accepted, Tennis, Football, etc use seedings to keep big teams apart and give them a better chance to progress to the later stages by getting easier opponents (and potentially higher earnings through progression). Cycling has a member of the team that is assisted by their team mates (giving up bikes to them if they got a flat, sacrificing their result and position to drop back and pace a rider back to the pack, and, in the year that Wiggins won the Tour De France, Froome sacrificed the win as the stronger rider to give Wiggins the win

The problem with F1 isn't team orders, but that the cars are so quick and so hard to overtake that even when a driver makes a mistake, there isn't the opportunity for the driver of the car behind to take advantage.

They need to find a way so that cars can drive a lot closer together like in some of the other forms of motor sport (bikes and touring cars) to help with passing moves - However if they make the track wider, F1 cars would treat corners more like a straight bit of road, make it twisty and cars behind can't pass, make the straights longer, and the cars get up to speed too fast that they usually can recover from an error before they can behind would be able to take advantage. This problem has led to the sport trying to manufacture ways for passing to happen (pit stops for tyres, and in the past, refueling, Drag Reduction System, etc)

 

[Icy Gull]

You were about half an hour AFTER I openly admitted the analogy doesn't quite work And fair enough, it's not actually cheating simply because it isn't against the rules - although if Vettel ends up losing to Hamilton by a point or two, he may feel he has been properly cheated out of a title..

So even though Raikkonen has moved out of the way for Vettel in races as have other no 2 drivers in the past he would feel cheated because Mercedes have done the same with Bottas moving over for Hamilton? Do you work for Ferrari?

Mercedes drivers have been allowed to race until it became clear that Bottas couldn’t win the title, unlike Ferrari where Vettel is the number one driver and his partners are seldom allowed to race him. Hamilton has earned the number 1 spot by winning on the track (until yesterday) Vettel has been given preferential treatment from race one in every season since he joined Red Bull and this has continued at Ferrari.

I love F1 but my biggest gripe is that drivers get penalised and dropped down the grid because they need replacement engines or gearboxes before a race. It would be far fairer to penalise the team by taking points off them rather than penalising the driver who may have qualified first but gets dropped down places because his engine/gearbox needs replacing. Leave the driver where he qualifies and knock a set number of points off the team for unreliable mechanical bits.

Verstappen could have won the Sochi race if he hadn’t had to start at the back of the grid. The punters and drivers are being cheated by this daft rule.

 

[Triggaaar]

Why? How does the fact that cycling is arguably similar invalidate what I'm saying? F1 is shit. Fact,

F1 is, unfortunately, a bit shit. But not because of the team orders that lead to Hamilton winning.

The cars need different restrictions on design that lead to more overtaking - a design that makes it possible to follow the car in front closely, without suffering a huge penalty for driving in 'dirty air'.

 

[Hillian1]

F1 is, unfortunately, a bit shit. But not because of the team orders that lead to Hamilton winning.

The cars need different restrictions on design that lead to more overtaking - a design that makes it possible to follow the car in front closely, without suffering a huge penalty for driving in 'dirty air'.

The new cars for 2021 will address this problem.

 

[Icy Gull]

F1 is, unfortunately, a bit shit. But not because of the team orders that lead to Hamilton winning.

The cars need different restrictions on design that lead to more overtaking - a design that makes it possible to follow the car in front closely, without suffering a huge penalty for driving in 'dirty air'.

It's only a bit shit if you are not a fan, I find cricket and American Football and Basketball very shit but they obviously aren't, otherwise they wouldn't have a worldwide following (probably less than F! though)

I fecking love F1 with the intrigue (which generally revolves around Ferrari trying to cheat ) and the awesome ability of the drivers even those at the back of the grid. Here's an idea, why watch it if you think it's shit. I wouldn't spend two minutes watching something that I thought was shit, and I don't.

I think there are some changes coming around 2020 which will make it more interesting and it is clear the drivers are up for a change to give them more control of what is happening with the car.

 

[Triggaaar]

The new cars for 2021 will address this problem.

Do you think the changes will work?

It's only a bit shit if you are not a fan, I find cricket and American Football and Basketball very shit but they obviously aren't, otherwise they wouldn't have a worldwide following (probably less than F! though)

No. Of course there are sports that some people just aren't into, as you've mentioned, but I love motor racing, it's in my blood and something I've loved all my life. But F1, the pinnacle of motor racing on 4 wheels, became a bit of a farce years ago, as overtaking became a thing of the past.

Her's an idea, why watch it if you think it's shit. I wouldn't spend two minutes watching seomthing that I thought was shit, and i don't.

Because I'm a fan of motor racing and I appreciate the skill of the drivers. I don't watch it religiously like I did when F1 was great, but I still watch it sometimes, ever hopeful it will become great again.

That's not the same as a sport I'm just not interested in, and don't watch at all, and don't comment about in threads.

 

[Hillian1]

Do you think the changes will work?
.

No idea, aerodynamics are the black arts of F1.

And if they really do make them like this I will probably spontaneously combust.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Do you think the changes will work?

No. Of course there are sports that some people just aren't into, as you've mentioned, but I love motor racing, it's in my blood and something I've loved all my life. But F1, the pinnacle of motor racing on 4 wheels, became a bit of a farce years ago, as overtaking became a thing of the past.

Because I'm a fan of motor racing and I appreciate the skill of the drivers. I don't watch it religiously like I did when F1 was great, but I still watch it sometimes, ever hopeful it will become great again.

That's not the same as a sport I'm just not interested in, and don't watch at all, and don't comment about in threads.

I think we have nostalgic memories about motor racing and F1 in particular. It's been hard to overtake since the 70s in all honestly, from the moment the Lotus 72 leaped from Chapman's drawing board to the track, aerodynamics became the raison d'etre of F1 car design. And people still died regularly of course. I think it has been more exciting these past few seasons than when say Mansell won it '92. The great Senna / Prost battles were largely down to just them, not too dissimilar to Hamilton and Vettel now. During that late 80s period into the 90s, there was something like only 10 races out of 45 or so not won by either Prost or Senna. We replay the great overtaking manoeuvres of yesteryear because they are so memorable because they were infrequent.

From those aerodynamic leaps in the 70s, F1 has always been a battle for a car to qualify fastest at the detriment of downforce when following another car.

I honestly think it has been a lot more boring in the past than it is today. These battles between 2 x 4 time winners in different teams is a great spectacle, Hamilton's overtake on Vettel every bit as dramatic as Senna on Prost some 30 years ago.

 

[maltaseagull]

I take these points and understand why it's done, but just because my analogy doesn't quite work, doesn't detract from these two points I make:

1) they crown the world champion as the one with the most points. Hamilton didn't earn his points today, so that seems flawed to me. Corrupt, in fact.

2) 150,000 or so will pay a fortune to watch a RACE, but then team orders ruin the spectacle. Are the crowd given refunds or are they expected to pay £100 a ticket to watch Mercedes decide who is going to win? i.e £100 to watch very fast traffic.

1) Hamilton didn't earn 7 of his points. He thoroughly earned 18 of them.
2) Fair point but it's been like this for some years as only 2 teams seem to dominate every race apart from the odd freak show when a Red Bull car wins. But still they pay !

 

[Titanic]

1) Hamilton didn't earn 7 of his points. He thoroughly earned 18 of them...

He earned the right to those 7 points over the past 15 races.

 

[Bold Seagull]

He earned the right to those 7 points over the past 15 races.

True, and the thing is, he went passed Vettel like it was easy, whereas everyone else struggled with the car in front, look at Ocon and Perez throughout the race on Magnusson. Hamilton's move on Vettel goes down as one of the great pieces of racing, both his avoidance of hitting him 2 corners before and getting round the outside. We are seeing a true legend of the sport.

 

[LlcoolJ]

It's only a bit shit if you are not a fan, I find cricket and American Football and Basketball very shit but they obviously aren't, otherwise they wouldn't have a worldwide following (probably less than F! though)

I've nothing against F1 and I quite enjoy it but the idea that it has a bigger worldwide following than cricket might be argued against by 1.3bn people in India. Plus all of Pakistan. [emoji23]

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I caught some F1 the other week and actually fell asleep.

I then 'caught' some Moto GP. Now THAT is racing. Absolutely brilliant.

I'm sure someone will tell me exactly why this wouldn't work but I've always thought:

The qualifying should be points scoring time trial instead. Every position gets a point depending on where they finish.

The 'time trial' results are then reversed to the grid is then reversed for the race, which is also point scoring for every position.

So the incentive is there to do well in the time trial as it earns points, but the race is then exciting as the fast cars are at the back. Loads of overtaking and unfashionable teams getting a chance to fight it out for a bit at the front.

Again, more than happy to be told why that wouldn't work.

 

[Simster]

I caught some F1 the other week and actually fell asleep.

I then 'caught' some Moto GP. Now THAT is racing. Absolutely brilliant.

I'm sure someone will tell me exactly why this wouldn't work but I've always thought:

The qualifying should be points scoring time trial instead. Every position gets a point depending on where they finish.

The 'time trial' results are then reversed to the grid is then reversed for the race, which is also point scoring for every position.

So the incentive is there to do well in the time trial as it earns points, but the race is then exciting as the fast cars are at the back. Loads of overtaking and unfashionable teams getting a chance to fight it out for a bit at the front.

Again, more than happy to be told why that wouldn't work.

I like that idea. It is certainly FAR less crackpot than their own laughable attempt to make it all more exciting by offering double points on the last grand prix. Unbelievable that they actually implemented idea. Christ on a bike.

 

[AK74]

On the subject of reverse grids, this approach is currently used in the World Superbike championship (where Jonathan Rea, from Northern Ireland, has just won his fourth straight title). While the concept sounds good- i.e. producing exciting racing as the best riders battle through the pack - the reality is rather different, as the best bikes (and riders) make short shrift of those in front of them and 'normal service' is quickly resumed.