[Other Sport] F1 nonsense

[Simster]

As others have pointed out, this is an absolute SHAMBLES of an analogy!

They race for the SAME team. There is no cheating here at all. Its an ethical question, for sure (and you'd be fuming if you'd placed a stupid bet on Bottas to win the race), but there's nothing wrong with their entirely understandable call.

The place where F1 strays into RB Leipzig / Salzburg territory, and where you actually COULD get real conflicts, is where there are two supposedly separate teams, under one umbrella - eg Red Bull and Toro Rosso. If a TR driver were to let a RB driver by, then hold up his direct rivals, that would be far more contentious.

(You're right of course that it is a very dull sport - obviously)

You were about half an hour AFTER I openly admitted the analogy doesn't quite work And fair enough, it's not actually cheating simply because it isn't against the rules - although if Vettel ends up losing to Hamilton by a point or two, he may feel he has been properly cheated out of a title.

And really my two points aren't fully addressed by simply saying it isn't cheating:

1) they crown the world champion as the one with the most points. Hamilton didn't earn his points today, so that seems flawed to me. Corrupt, in fact.

2) 150,000 or so will pay a fortune to watch a RACE, but then team orders ruin the spectacle. Are the crowd given refunds or are they expected to pay £100 a ticket to watch Mercedes decide who is going to win? i.e £100 to watch very fast traffic.

By the way [MENTION=47]Tooting Gull[/MENTION], I have respect for snooker and darts - they are what they are, games or sports, whatever - but they are not inherently corrupt or unfair like this traffic nonsense.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I take these points and understand why it's done, but just because my analogy doesn't quite work, doesn't detract from these two points I make:

1) they crown the world champion as the one with the most points. Hamilton didn't earn his points today, so that seems flawed to me. Corrupt, in fact.

2) 150,000 or so will pay a fortune to watch a RACE, but then team orders ruin the spectacle. Are the crowd given refunds or are they expected to pay £100 a ticket to watch Mercedes decide who is going to win? i.e £100 to watch very fast traffic.

Every decision they take, who is ahead of who in qualifying, who pits first, who has an upgrade first etc. etc. are all decisions that benefit 1 driver over another. Each team is competing for the championship, how they choose to win that championship is up to them. To some degree it has always been like this.

You can go back to Fangio letting Stirling Moss win the British Grand Prix in '55 under team orders, or when Graham Hill was denied the championship when Bandini let Surtees through in '64. It's a team sport in which a team with 2 drivers can only with the championship with 1 of them.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Who'd be stupid enough to bet on Bottas knowing that if Hamilton were second he would be allowed to pass.

Practical betting advice though that might be, it's not really the bigger point though, is it? More a total acceptance of the farcical nature of the 'race'. That incident has done huge damage to F1's reputation as a sport. Obviously some weren't too convinced in the first place.

 

[JJ McClure]

fair enough, it's not actually cheating simply because it isn't against the rules - although if Vettel ends up losing to Hamilton by a point or two, he may feel he has been properly cheated out of a title.

As Vettel had the preferential number one status at Red Bull for his four world titles I'm not sure he'd have a leg to stand on.

 

[Simster]

As Vettel had the preferential number one status at Red Bull for his four world titles I'm not sure he'd have a leg to stand on.

True of course, but not really the point I'm making.

As a general aside, just because "it's always been like this", doesn't really justify the whole charade in my view. At a time where so many sports are finally waking up to dealing with cheating in their midst (baseball, cycling, athletics in particular), I just feel F1 sticks out like a sore thumb as completely lacking any form of integrity.

 

[Bozza]

Isn't cycling pretty much the same - a team conspires to generally benefit one specific rider, whether that rider is going for a stage win or a tour win or whatever?

Riders who may well be able to win a race are sacrificed for the benefit of the one the team has decided is the one they want to win.

 

[strings]

I haven't watched F1 for a number of years (I gave up when it moved to sky). However I do recall that team orders were banned at one point. They were then un-banned because it was impossible to enforce, with teams using codewords and phrases to execute team orders 'Fillippe, Fernando is faster than you', is one that springs to memory (as well as Piquet Jr. being ordered to crash).

I would say that Mercedes are well advised to enforce team orders. Remember 2007? McLaren did not have strict team orders, except that Alsonso and Hamilton were not allowed to race each other (even when one was very clearly faster at Monaco). The result was Hamilton and Alonso tying for second, allowing Raikonnnen to win by a single point.

In any sport that is executed by teams, but won by individuals, team orders are unavoidable and sensible. Boring, but sensible.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Bottas should have told Wolf to stick his team orders where the sun refuses to shine. That would have been a lot more interesting.

That's the trouble with F1 - too many corporate drivers with little personality.

 

[Grombleton]

Consider this scenario:

RB Leipzig are playing Red Bull Salzburg in the penultimate round of the Europa League group stages in late November. It's all square at half time, and as things stand Leipzig need a point to qualify. However, Salzburg look like they will need a miracle because Celtic are hammering group whipping boys Rosenborg, which means that Salzburg need 3 points here and another 3 at Celtic to pip the unwashed to 2nd.

Red Bull orders Leipzig to concede 3 goals in the second half and to take all their strikers off. Handily, they now just need to beat Rosenborg at home to qualify and now Salzburg have a chance themselves. A good job well done.

That sounds a bit shit doesn't it? You might even say dishonest and cheating? But apparently that sort of conduct is all perfectly ok in Formula One and exactly why it will always be even less of a sport than Darts or Snooker to me - and why Lewis Hamilton or any other driver should never be anywhere near SPOTY when the time comes.

It is nothing but fast traffic. It isn't even competitive. Why would anyone pay huge sums to watch this organised charade?

I was with you until you suggested that Celtic would win in Europe.

 

[Bozza]

I tell you what though: despite team orders, Lewis Hamilton could have done far more for his reputation and standing if he had come onto the radio and said he was going to ignore instructions and let Bottas come past him to take the win.

He would still almost certainly have won the World Championship and even if he didn't, again, his reputation would only have improved if this incident turned out to be the reason why.

 

[GT49er]

Anyway, Ferrari can have no beef about other teams using team orders - exactly what they did with Schumacher and Irvine 20 odd years ago.

 

[Bozza]

On F1 in general though, I'm more into it this year than I ever have been before, although I'm being paid to be into it right now.

Before this year I've never felt any great desire to go and see a race, whereas now it's a matter of deciding which one(s) I want to go and see (and it would be me paying to go, not being paid to go!)

 

[blue-shifted]

I despair for F1

It should be brilliant. The fastest drivers, racing the fastest cars all of the world. But vested financial interests mean that only 2 teams out of 10 can realistically win. F1 increasingly exists to promote the other interests of the 2 major constructors.

It got me thinking. Which sports are doing really well to make the best of themselves and promote themselves effectively to the world

Boxing – no – Same as F1. It should be brilliant. But it’s rubbish. Way too many belts, way too many fighters avoiding the fights they should take
Cricket – no – only exists to serve the financial interests of England, Australia and increasingly India. Nowhere near as good as it was before it sold itself to sky.
Rugby – no – Once more the vested financial interests are trying as hard as they can to stop the development of the world game. To an outsider, the fact there are 2 different versions of the same sport is bewildering.
Cycling – no - Has it really made enough efforts to rid itself of drugs?
Athletics – no - made even less effort to rid itself of drugs. Probably the worst run sport.

Slightly better run sports I’d say are …

Tennis – probably a bit too much pandering to the golden era stars but it’s a simple and well run sport
Football – It says something for the quality of sports administration that (FIFA and UEFA led) football is probably one of the better administered sports. The world cup in summer showed that no matter how much you try to destroy your product, if your product is fundamentally brilliant people will still want it, Though, again, way way too much financial polarisation at club level.
Snooker – Hearn’s done alright there. Plenty of tournaments with big name players in. A worry for the sport that the same players who were winning 25 years ago are still winning now.


Running a sport should be pretty easy. Have a clear structure / format which people can understand. Promote it well, make it accessible to outsiders to get into it, keep it simple and don’t be tempted to take short term profit. Most importantly make sure your audience believe in the authenticity of the competition.

 

[MattBackHome]

F1 is utter shite

 

[FatSuperman]

As Vettel had the preferential number one status at Red Bull for his four world titles I'm not sure he'd have a leg to stand on.

He's also benefitted this season from team orders hasn't he? Raikkonen was told to move aside for him in Hockenheim.

 

[carlzeiss]

Bottas should have told Wolf to stick his team orders where the sun refuses to shine. That would have been a lot more interesting.

That's the trouble with F1 - too many corporate drivers with little personality.

Yeah and then not be offered a new contact , great idea .

 

[Stat Brother]

At the risk of being wooshed you have seen Celtics group for the Europa League?

Oh my mistake have red bull worked a way round UEFA's ethics?

Excuse my ignorance and general wrongness.

 

[beorhthelm]

Oh my mistake have red bull worked a way round UEFA's ethics?

Excuse my ignorance and general wrongness.

apparently Red Bull Saltzburg are no longer controlled by Red Bull, only their sponsors. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40348340

 

[Tooting Gull]

I tell you what though: despite team orders, Lewis Hamilton could have done far more for his reputation and standing if he had come onto the radio and said he was going to ignore instructions and let Bottas come past him to take the win.

He would still almost certainly have won the World Championship and even if he didn't, again, his reputation would only have improved if this incident turned out to be the reason why.

Agree with this. Obviously it's a lot to process in that split-second for Hamilton, even though he's had plenty of time to consider the concept of Bottas being ordered to let him win.

But if he HAD settled for second he'd have hoovered up in all probability not only another world title, but every annual sportsmanship award going. A lot of people think Hamilton is a bit of a ****, he could have sorted that for good. It would have been a 'Di Canio catching the ball' moment.

 

[sully]

As Vettel had the preferential number one status at Red Bull for his four world titles I'm not sure he'd have a leg to stand on.

He has also confirmed that Mercedes actions yesterday were “a no brainer” and that he would have expected the same from his team if the roles were reversed.

Much as it will have hurt Bottas yesterday - and it clearly did - they all know the score once one of the pairing isn’t in the championship race. It’s much harder to accept if it’s done early in the season.