[Misc] F1 2021

[Icy Gull]

Can't recall any, but by the same token I can't recall any where he needed to (other than yesterday) ... but I'm also pretty confident that he won't, he's a driver who clearly thinks he owns the track at all points in time and is entitled to do what he wants to stake that ownership.

I can think of at least two (Imola, Monza first lap) where Verstappen did exactly to Hamilton (left no room for the second part of the chicane) as Verstappen claims Hamilton did yesterday. He can't have it both ways (but he will continue to try).

The worry is that if the FIA and more importantly Red Bull don’t tell him to reign in his aggression someone is going to die or get badly injured eventually. He does not seem to have the mental capacity to play the long game at all, not in a single race or in the season

 

[Audax]

The worry is that if the FIA and more importantly Red Bull don’t tell him to reign in his aggression someone is going to die or get badly injured eventually. He does not seem to have the mental capacity to play the long game at all, not in a single race or in the season

Can't disagree with that. He is a definite problem that needs a solution. Mostly because he always walks the tightrope of what is acceptable and what isn't, and thus often lands on the wrong side of it. It is, therefore, a bit incongruous that Verstappen only has 2 penalty points (for Monza). Which may explain some of his tightroping - he's not close to a race ban, so he can afford a few risky moves.

His attitude was exemplified in some of his radio exchanges with STR before he joined Red Bull. The petulant refusals to follow team orders when asked to give something up, contrasted with the absolute lack of any hesitation to demand team orders in his own favour as if it was his divine right. Compare that with Russell, who at Hungary voluntarily told the team to sacrifice his own race if it meant they could get Latifi into the points.

Have no doubt that Russell is a phenomenal driver and will be selfish when he needs to be - but he's also a genuine team player. Something that Verstappen absolutely is not - for Max, it's all "me me me me me", and I don't think that will ever change.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Can't disagree with that. He is a definite problem that needs a solution. Mostly because he always walks the tightrope of what is acceptable and what isn't, and thus often lands on the wrong side of it. It is, therefore, a bit incongruous that Verstappen only has 2 penalty points (for Monza). Which may explain some of his tightroping - he's not close to a race ban, so he can afford a few risky moves.

His attitude was exemplified in some of his radio exchanges with STR before he joined Red Bull. The petulant refusals to follow team orders when asked to give something up, contrasted with the absolute lack of any hesitation to demand team orders in his own favour as if it was his divine right. Compare that with Russell, who at Hungary voluntarily told the team to sacrifice his own race if it meant they could get Latifi into the points.

Have no doubt that Russell is a phenomenal driver and will be selfish when he needs to be - but he's also a genuine team player. Something that Verstappen absolutely is not - for Max, it's all "me me me me me", and I don't think that will ever change.

Talking of team players, Norris was fantastic all weekend and exemplified what being a team player is. Quick thinker too because rather than force it into being a team decision, he made it his decision pretty much as the tyres were collectively going off anyway and getting passed Riccardo would have been unlikely. Not in anyway cynical, just a very good head on his shoulders. An absolute star in the making, and a personality with it. He's also got that edge, but also mature judgement, he went in deep into turns 1 and 2 on Leclerc, not too dissimilar to Verstappen on Hamilton, but backed out, got great traction and position out of 2 and got Leclerc at 3 with a bit of off-roading to boot. It was a brilliant aggressive, but clean move.

I didn't see anyone make a move stick on the outside of turn 1 taking the inside of turn 2. Either backing out, taking the kerbs or escape road. My memory is crap, but I think it's an incredibly difficult move there at Monza from the outside to take the inside at turn 2 similar because the car that has taken the apex of turn 1 ahead has nowhere to but the apex of turn 2. They're not the first 2 to have a collision there and won't be the last either.

 

[Audax]

Talking of team players, Norris was fantastic all weekend and exemplified what being a team player is. Quick thinker too because rather than force it into being a team decision, he made it his decision pretty much as the tyres were collectively going off anyway and getting passed Riccardo would have been unlikely. Not in anyway cynical, just a very good head on his shoulders. An absolute star in the making, and a personality with it. He's also got that edge, but also mature judgement, he went in deep into turns 1 and 2 on Leclerc, not too dissimilar to Verstappen on Hamilton, but backed out, got great traction and position out of 2 and got Leclerc at 3 with a bit of off-roading to boot. It was a brilliant aggressive, but clean move.

Yep - Norris is a good'un. Good pace, and a good head on his shoulders as well. He did try to influence the team into swapping the cars at one point, but he didn't push it and arrived at the right decision on his own and didn't force the team to make it.

Should also say it was good to see Ricciardo pretty much able to match Norris across the weekend. Nothing in it in qually, had the pace in the sprint race, and was the quicker of the two in the first stint of the race proper. Norris looked slightly the quicker on the hards, but I doubt it was quicker enough to be able to make a pass stick.

I didn't see anyone make a move stick on the outside of turn 1 taking the inside of turn 2. Either backing out, taking the kerbs or escape road. My memory is crap, but I think it's an incredibly difficult move there at Monza from the outside to take the inside at turn 2 similar because the car that has taken the apex of turn 1 ahead has nowhere to but the apex of turn 2. They're not the first 2 to have a collision there and won't be the last either.

Believe there were a few further back in the order. But generally speaking, it requires the driver on the inside of T1 to cooperate unless the driver going around the outside has their nose in front by at least the diameter of the front tyres. Also requires the driver on the inside of T1 to not have been pushed so deep in braking that they can't then get back across the track to leave room for the second apex. It's the same at the second chicane (where Hamilton passed Norris just before their pit stops). It can be done around the outside of the first part, but you need to be properly ahead (as Hamilton was) to make it stick, otherwise you'll end up cutting the second apex (as Perez did).

Generally, the best way to use the T1 chicane to make a pass is by using it to set up a pass into the second chicane - force the driver ahead to defend to the inside, but then hang back, cut back to open up the exit from the chicane so you can get a really good run through curva grande and make the pass stick on entry to that second chicane. But Verstappen doesn't seem capable of thinking that far ahead...

 

[Pavilionaire]

Max is in his 7th year now....

You're correct, but what I was alluding to is that Max is still young in years and making the same sort of impetuous mistakes that Lewis was making when he was 23 and in his 2nd year of F1.

This head to head 2021 season between Lewis and Max could go either way. Max thinks it's his time to get his first Driver's Championship, Lewis wants a record-equalling 8th title while both know McLaren will be strong next season and Norris and Russell will both be gunning for them too, so there's so much riding on this.

 

[227 BHA]

You're correct, but what I was alluding to is that Max is still young in years and making the same sort of impetuous mistakes that Lewis was making when he was 23 and in his 2nd year of F1.

This head to head 2021 season between Lewis and Max could go either way. Max thinks it's his time to get his first Driver's Championship, Lewis wants a record-equalling 8th title while both know McLaren will be strong next season and Norris and Russell will both be gunning for them too, so there's so much riding on this.

Record-equalling 8th title? I thought 7 was the record so wouldn’t he be stand alone most championships with 8?

 

[Audax]

Interesting take on how Verstappen and Hamilton got in a tangle here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k660y7johY0

 

[Pavilionaire]

Record-equalling 8th title? I thought 7 was the record so wouldn’t he be stand alone most championships with 8?

My bad, I meant record-breaking.

I don't think there will be the same edge in 2022 as either Max will have become world champion, or Lewis would have got his 8th and be a bit more chilled about things.

 

[227 BHA]

My bad, I meant record-breaking.

I don't think there will be the same edge in 2022 as either Max will have become world champion, or Lewis would have got his 8th and be a bit more chilled about things.

I think if Lewis gets his 8th he’ll retire as the most successful driver ever as there’s not a lot more he could do so would have nothing to prove

 

[Icy Gull]

I think if Lewis gets his 8th he’ll retire as the most successful driver ever as there’s not a lot more he could do so would have nothing to prove

Ideal finale for him. I’ll then be switching my British driver allegiance to Norris

Not sure Lewis will quit with a new era of F1 coming up though

 

[maltaseagull]

Has Toto submitted a bill to Horner for the damage yet? Horner was only too willing to bleat on about how much damage he thought Hamilton had caused last time!

Horner has been unusually quiet about this.
That tells you he knows who is at fault.
Otherwise he would be bleating on and on to the stewards and anyone else.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I think if Lewis gets his 8th he’ll retire as the most successful driver ever as there’s not a lot more he could do so would have nothing to prove

Except that in July 2021 he signed a 2-year contract extension for 2022 and 2023, and Mercedes second driver in those years will be the youngster George Russell. Mercedes will not want Lewis to be retiring at the end of this season.

If Lewis won the driver championship and quit at the end of this season then I suspect the only palatable scenario for Mercedes would be to land Verstappen. It is interesting that Toto Wolf did not stick the boot into Verstappen after yesterday's accident, whereas Horner is far more critical of Lewis by comparison. I suspect Toto is being pragmatic as he knows Mercedes may want the option of signing Verstappen if he becomes available. Meanwhile, Horner can say what he likes about Hamilton because there is little prospect of him ever driving for Red Bull.

 

[drew]

Except that in July 2021 he signed a 2-year contract extension for 2022 and 2023, and Mercedes second driver in those years will be the youngster George Russell. Mercedes will not want Lewis to be retiring at the end of this season.

If Lewis won the driver championship and quit at the end of this season then I suspect the only palatable scenario for Mercedes would be to land Verstappen. It is interesting that Toto Wolf did not stick the boot into Verstappen after yesterday's accident, whereas Horner is far more critical of Lewis by comparison. I suspect Toto is being pragmatic as he knows Mercedes may want the option of signing Verstappen if he becomes available. Meanwhile, Horner can say what he likes about Hamilton because there is little prospect of him ever driving for Red Bull.

Surely the dream team would be Russell and Norris?

 

[Brighthelmstone]

Surely the dream team would be Russell and Norris?

Lando is fine in a McClaren thank you!

 

[Creaky]

Interesting take on how Verstappen and Hamilton got in a tangle here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k660y7johY0

The best and most impartial analysis of the Monday crash I have seen to date.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

The best and most impartial analysis of the Monday crash I have seen to date.

Which almost implied that Hamilton was at fault through not being at fault enough!

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Verstappen bounced his car virtually on to Hamilton's head and wouldn't even check if Lewis was alright. That is beyond aggression in sport. That suggests he did it on purpose and achieved his aim. Chilling.

 

[Icy Gull]

The best and most impartial analysis of the Monday crash I have seen to date.

His suggestion that Lewis should have squeezed Max earlier makes no sense to me. Max was coming through regardless imo, I think the aggression Max showed made it inevitable that there was going to be a coming together, it would just have been earlier in the corner

The fact that he thought Lewis should have been more aggressive earlier ignores the fact the Max never backs out

I think his comment that the slow pit stop hadn’t and wouldn’t affect Max’s mindset is complete rubbish too

 

[Nitram]

I’d rather go with the analysis the stewards have, with the benefit of all the data from the cars which found Max to be at fault. Takes out all the partisan nonsense.

 

[Audax]

Verstappen bounced his car virtually on to Hamilton's head and wouldn't even check if Lewis was alright. That is beyond aggression in sport. That suggests he did it on purpose and achieved his aim. Chilling.

Let's not jump to extended conclusions when there's a far simpler answer: Verstappen is a petulant, self-centred little sh!t who simply doesn't care about others. It's all about him, and what is in front him *right now*. Show him what looks like a big enough gap to try for a pass in the moment and he'll take it. I don't think anything else passes through his head in that moment than "door is open, I'm going through it".

Personally: I don't think max ever thinks far enough ahead. He saw what he thought was a gap so he went for it, in the moment. Completely failing in doing so to consider that he would have been better off hanging back and using his tyre advantage (Hamilton's were cold coming out of the pits) to get traction out of the second part of the chicane and jumping Hamilton at the second chicane.

There's a comparison out there of Hamilton's line through the chicane on a normal lap and the line he took defending against Verstappen. He was much further left defending, which means his line through the second part of the chicane (and thus his exit) was going to be heavily compromised. It also, FWIW, confirms that Hamilton was squeezing the space to try to stop Verstappen making the move he did. He just didn't squeeze it enough - if he had been another foot further left Verstappen would have been left with no other option than to cut the second part of the chicane.

If fault must be apportioned, then Verstappen has to take it. Absolutely. But to imply he did it deliberately is, IMO, taking it a step too far.