[Misc] F1 2021

[Dr Q]

Totally Max's fault, and I'm glad the stewards came to their conclusion.
Sadly, the penalty will be somewhat negated as Red Bull will probably take an Engine Penalty for using a fourth power unit at the next race in Sochi. That would mean they be starting at the back anyway, so the 3 place penalty will be nullified. Lewis is due one sometime soon as well (Bottas took his today), maybe both should start at the back and battle each other to the front!!

 

[drew]

Has Toto submitted a bill to Horner for the damage yet? Horner was only too willing to bleat on about how much damage he thought Hamilton had caused last time!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Genuinely shocked at the arrogance and complete lack of humility of Verstappen. I don’t ever want to see him win the World Title, the guy is a prize cock.

This is what he said before the penalty, no remorse, no concern and no awareness or care that he could have killed another driver

Before the penalty was announced, the 23-year-old wrote on Twitter: "Today was very unfortunate. The incident could have been avoided if I had been left enough space to make the corner.

"You need two people to make that work and I feel I was squeezed out of it. When racing each other, these things can happen, unfortunately."

The fact Horner wasn't spinning like a top afterwards tells you all you want to know.

Hamilton - waves a Union Jack in front of his home support.

Max - leaves his wheel on Hamilton's head and doesn't even check on him.

Quite clear who the disrespectful scumbag is to me now.

Loved the McLaren 1-2, the double shoe celebration (Lando needs practice at that) and the fact that Monza, as predicted, produced a cracker of a race.

Sochi will be shit though and [MENTION=2802]Dr Q[/MENTION] is spot on that Red Bull will use it to change the PU for Max.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Max Verstappen and Christian Horner are a pair of cocks. Both arrogant and trying to defend the indefensible.

Whoever invented the halo should be commended for saving Lewis's life.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

I really want to like Max, there's no doubting his talent.

But he is a cock, and I predict once Russell gets in the Merc, there will be many more coming togethers next season.

 

[Easy 10]

I found the footage genuinely jaw-dropping.

Verstappen had literally just parked his car on top of Hamiltons head - yet he skips out and storms off in a tantrum. Not even a backward glance at whether his fellow race driver was in any kind of trouble.

The bloke is (a) a total sociopath and (b) an utter c*nt. I have lost all respect for him, and hope he wakes up with gout.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Max Verstappen and Christian Horner are a pair of cocks. Both arrogant and trying to defend the indefensible.

Whoever invented the halo should be commended for saving Lewis's life.

Agreed - without the halo I have no doubt that that would have been a fatal incident. Of course, quite a freak impact the way the rear tyre of the Red Bull ended up travelling over the top of the Mercedes cockpit, but if you have a driver who absolutely refuses to yield under any circumstances then a very serious outcome becomes a matter of 'when', not 'if.'

It reminds me training I have done in the past, where a fatal collision needs to viewed not in the context of that one event - but as a result of a sequence of prior events / near misses, that when viewed as a pattern, highlight that something bad is inevitable unless a positive intervention is made. Someone needs to get hold of Verstappen and tell him that all the evidence is pointing to the fact that unless he cools down down a little, his current style of driving is going to end up in someone getting killed. It nearly happened today. Tick tock....

 

[Pavilionaire]

Lewis was a tad reckless during his early years but learned some self-control. I will cut Max some slack in that regard because he is young but Max is downright dangerous.

As for not stopping to speak with Lewis after he'd driven over his head and buried his car in the gravel - well, that was unforgiveable.

 

[jimhigham]

…hope he wakes up with gout.

Excellent. Not fatal with just the right level of agony. Well thought through ill wishes. Well done.

It was lovely to drive home from work tonight and pass the McLaren entrance. The sign was lit up in team colours. I’d genuinely forgotten they did that for a win, as it’s been a long time coming. There’s a lot of civic pride for the team round these parts. We’ve basically got McLaren, Martians, Paul Weller and Tim Buzaglo. That’s it.

 

[Icy Gull]

Totally Max's fault, and I'm glad the stewards came to their conclusion.
Sadly, the penalty will be somewhat negated as Red Bull will probably take an Engine Penalty for using a fourth power unit at the next race in Sochi. That would mean they be starting at the back anyway, so the 3 place penalty will be nullified. Lewis is due one sometime soon as well (Bottas took his today), maybe both should start at the back and battle each other to the front!!

If Verstappen takes a new engine in Sochi is there any chance that the 3 place grid penalty could be carried over to the next race? Letting Red Bull “get away” with their drivers dangerous driving penalty is not acceptable to me

In fact are the FIA likely to look further into the consequences of the crash which the Stewards said they weren’t going to do?

 

[disgruntled h blocker]

Lewis was a tad reckless during his early years but learned some self-control. I will cut Max some slack in that regard because he is young but Max is downright dangerous.

As for not stopping to speak with Lewis after he'd driven over his head and buried his car in the gravel - well, that was unforgiveable.

Max is in his 7th year now....

 

[Audax]

If Verstappen takes a new engine in Sochi is there any chance that the 3 place grid penalty could be carried over to the next race? Letting Red Bull “get away” with their drivers dangerous driving penalty is not acceptable to me

In fact are the FIA likely to look further into the consequences of the crash which the Stewards said they weren’t going to do?

No, the penalty will not carry over. And no, I don't think the FIA will look any deeper in terms of penalties for Verstappen or the team. What they will look into, that the stewards don't, is how the incident unfolded, how the cars got to where they did, and what can be done to further improve safety in such incidents (they won't be happy that despite the Halo, Hamilton still got a whack on the head).

That Verstappen "only" got a 3 place penalty suggests to me that the stewards didn't feel that what happened was explicitly reckless. Yes, Verstappen at fault - but it looks to me like they apportioned fault mostly on the grounds that Verstappen could (and should) have bailed out, cut the apex, and tucked back in behind Lewis instead of trying to stay "on circuit" to complete a pass that he wasn't quite in position to complete. Stewards have made clear post-Silverstone that they don't take account of the after-the-fact consequences - so while it all looked horrible, they'll have been looking at things like how the sausage kerb played it's part in launching Verstappen's rear tyres into Hamilton, and the tyre-on-tyre contact that resulted being what launched Verstappen up and over Hamilton. In many respects, not unlike how they dealt with Silverstone. The key difference here being that Verstappen was out of the race and thus couldn't take an in-race penalty (which, I expect, would have been the same as Hamilton's at Silverstone if he had remained in the race) - so in some respects, if Red Bull do take the engine penalty at the next round, it also turns out similar to Hamilton's Silverstone penalty - one that in the grand scheme of things had no impact, given Hamilton still won that race. (The one proviso here being that I suspect Red Bull would prefer to not take that engine penalty at Sochi).

Verstappen still has a lot to learn about how to manage and win a WDC title. Hamilton learned those lesson a long time ago, but let's face it - there was a time when Hamilton wouldn't have bailed out of the lap 1 move and the two of them would have been in the gravel before the end of lap 1.

Absolutely agree with everyone that Verstappen failing to check on Hamilton was a disgrace, unless he was absolutely confident Hamilton was fine because Hamilton had been busy trying to reverse out from under the Red Bull (which is a good sign he's ok). But even then, it's what drivers should always do - check on each other. Verstappen is a flawed personality - supremely selfish, arrogant, and (from what I've seen) unable to accept fault in himself. The latter is a common feature amongst racing drivers, if an incident is even remotely "debatable" they'll always blame the other driver - but Verstappen takes it to extremes.

I'm not a huge Hamilton fan, but at this stage I'd rather see Hamilton win the title again than Verstappen.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

Back in my [2-wheeled] racing days we used to have a saying:

To finish first, first you have to finish ...

Clearly Max would know this but this message is trumped [in MVs mind] by:

Take out you nearest rival if/where necessary.

If that had been, say Norris, I wonder whether MV would have be quite so gung-ho / aggressive?

 

[JJ McClure]

The nerve of Verstappen to suggest Lewis squeezed him when this season alone he's run Lewis off track 3 times (Imola, Barcelona and the first lap in Monza) just shows how much of a cock he is. In addition to Lewis bailing out on lap 1 a number of other cars took to the curbs during the race to avoid accidents, the fact the Max didn't and chose to risk an inevitable accident is on him and at best was an error of judgement and at worst was intentional.

 

[Icy Gull]

No, the penalty will not carry over. And no, I don't think the FIA will look any deeper in terms of penalties for Verstappen or the team. What they will look into, that the stewards don't, is how the incident unfolded, how the cars got to where they did, and what can be done to further improve safety in such incidents (they won't be happy that despite the Halo, Hamilton still got a whack on the head).

That@ Verstappen "only" got a 3 place penalty suggests to me that the stewards didn't feel that what happened was explicitly reckless. Yes, Verstappen at fault - but it looks to me like they apportioned fault mostly on the grounds that Verstappen could (and should) have bailed out, cut the apex, and tucked back in behind Lewis instead of trying to stay "on circuit" to complete a pass that he wasn't quite in position to complete. Stewards have made clear post-Silverstone that they don't take account of the after-the-fact consequences - so while it all looked horrible, they'll have been looking at things like how the sausage kerb played it's part in launching Verstappen's rear tyres into Hamilton, and the tyre-on-tyre contact that resulted being what launched Verstappen up and over Hamilton. In many respects, not unlike how they dealt with Silverstone. The key difference here being that Verstappen was out of the race and thus couldn't take an in-race penalty (which, I expect, would have been the same as Hamilton's at Silverstone if he had remained in the race) - so in some respects, if Red Bull do take the engine penalty at the next round, it also turns out similar to Hamilton's Silverstone penalty - one that in the grand scheme of things had no impact, given Hamilton still won that race. (The one proviso here being that I suspect Red Bull would prefer to not take that engine penalty at Sochi).

Verstappen still has a lot to learn about how to manage and win a WDC title. Hamilton learned those lesson a long time ago, but let's face it - there was a time when Hamilton wouldn't have bailed out of the lap 1 move and the two of them would have been in the gravel before the end of lap 1.

Absolutely agree with everyone that Verstappen failing to check on Hamilton was a disgrace, unless he was absolutely confident Hamilton was fine because Hamilton had been busy trying to reverse out from under the Red Bull (which is a good sign he's ok). But even then, it's what drivers should always do - check on each other. Verstappen is a flawed personality - supremely selfish, arrogant, and (from what I've seen) unable to accept fault in himself. The latter is a common feature amongst racing drivers, if an incident is even remotely "debatable" they'll always blame the other driver - but Verstappen takes it to extremes.

I'm not a huge Hamilton fan, but at this stage I'd rather see Hamilton win the title again than Verstappen.

Thanks, very informative and good points made

 

[disgruntled h blocker]

The nerve of Verstappen to suggest Lewis squeezed him when this season alone he's run Lewis off track 3 times (Imola, Barcelona and the first lap in Monza) just shows how much of a cock he is. In addition to Lewis bailing out on lap 1 a number of other cars took to the curbs during the race to avoid accidents, the fact the Max didn't and chose to risk an inevitable accident is on him and at best was an error of judgement and at worst was intentional.

And Max said on his radio just after the clash "That's what you get when you don't leave the space.". Pretty disgraceful all things considered. Horner was a little cagey when being interviewed by the SkyF1 guys after the race too.

 

[A1X]

The nerve of Verstappen to suggest Lewis squeezed him when this season alone he's run Lewis off track 3 times (Imola, Barcelona and the first lap in Monza) just shows how much of a cock he is. In addition to Lewis bailing out on lap 1 a number of other cars took to the curbs during the race to avoid accidents, the fact the Max didn't and chose to risk an inevitable accident is on him and at best was an error of judgement and at worst was intentional.

Even Mazepin got out of one by doing that at some point. Imagine being more reckless and naive than him.

 

[Audax]

Just throwing it out there - interesting take on the incident from The Race: https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-verdict-on-hamilton-and-verstappens-italian-gp-clash/

For those who maybe don't have time to read it in detail - it was written before the stewards gave their ruling, so wasn't coloured by that. The general consensus amongst the team at The Race is that Hamilton should have left more room, and their reasoning for it makes sense. But I suspect having seen the stewards' ruling, they'll accept it as well.

One area that was touched on is that both drivers having a DNF cost Hamilton more than it cost Verstappen. Monza was always seen as a race where Mercedes were expected to do better, so for Verstappen to come out of the weekend with a bigger lead than he had going in equates to "advantage Verstappen". Obviously the grid penalty at the next race may swing that balance back in favour of Hamilton, but the point being made by one of the journos was that had Hamilton given more room, he could have attacked Verstappen into the next chicane and been on for a possible race win from that point (assuming he could find a way past the McLaren's). A lot of fine margins.

Also: there's confirmation in a separate article on The Race that had Verstappen remained in the race, he would have been given a 5s time penalty. That 3 place grid penalty is, IMO, a lot harsher than that so I'm actually fairly comfortable if Red Bull effectively negate it by taking an engine penalty at the same time.

Edit: I still personally feel Verstappen primarily at fault. he could and should have bailed out.

 

[Icy Gull]

Just throwing it out there - interesting take on the incident from The Race: https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-verdict-on-hamilton-and-verstappens-italian-gp-clash/

For those who maybe don't have time to read it in detail - it was written before the stewards gave their ruling, so wasn't coloured by that. The general consensus amongst the team at The Race is that Hamilton should have left more room, and their reasoning for it makes sense. But I suspect having seen the stewards' ruling, they'll accept it as well.

One area that was touched on is that both drivers having a DNF cost Hamilton more than it cost Verstappen. Monza was always seen as a race where Mercedes were expected to do better, so for Verstappen to come out of the weekend with a bigger lead than he had going in equates to "advantage Verstappen". Obviously the grid penalty at the next race may swing that balance back in favour of Hamilton, but the point being made by one of the journos was that had Hamilton given more room, he could have attacked Verstappen into the next chicane and been on for a possible race win from that point (assuming he could find a way past the McLaren's). A lot of fine margins.

Also: there's confirmation in a separate article on The Race that had Verstappen remained in the race, he would have been given a 5s time penalty. That 3 place grid penalty is, IMO, a lot harsher than that so I'm actually fairly comfortable if Red Bull effectively negate it by taking an engine penalty at the same time.

Putting aside blame on this particular incident and ignoring him walking away without checking how Hamilton was, can anyone remind me at which races this year that Verstappen has backed off in an incident with Hamilton? I can think of a number of times where Hamilton has

 

[Audax]

Putting aside blame on this particular incident and ignoring him walking away without checking how Hamilton was, can anyone remind me at which races this year that Verstappen has backed off in an incident with Hamilton? I can think of a number of times where Hamilton has

Can't recall any, but by the same token I can't recall any where he needed to (other than yesterday) ... but I'm also pretty confident that he won't, he's a driver who clearly thinks he owns the track at all points in time and is entitled to do what he wants to stake that ownership.

I can think of at least two (Imola, Monza first lap) where Verstappen did exactly to Hamilton (left no room for the second part of the chicane) as Verstappen claims Hamilton did yesterday. He can't have it both ways (but he will continue to try).