[Football] Everton deduction reduced to 6 points [Update 8/4: ...and another 2 points]

[mile oak]

After Saturday I beginning to hate Everton almost as much as Chelsea. Scum that cheat and keep cheating and I hope they go down I really do.

 

[Motogull]

What a load of bollocks. The appeal decision is as weak as warm piss..

10 points was a nice fit as 1/2 point per £M over. Allowing the appeal stuffs that, encourages appeals and breeds uncertainty.

The extra income those extra placings allow makes the £20M overspend even more worth it.

KUNNTS

 

[Weststander]

Very interesting.

I think next season in the Prem could be an absolute cracker at both ends of the table. This year we've got plucky Luton, while Burnley and the Blades have stunk the place out, so Everton can breathe easy but replace those 3 that cam up with Leeds, Leicester and Saints and relegation will be a dogfight. They also won't be in their new stadium until summer 2025, if not later.

Unfortunately with Dycheball and 10 outfield muscle men, I can see any club under his management chisel out say 45 to 50 points. On a low (the lowest?) he kept Burnley in the PL other than one relegation. Once they move into BMD they’ll dump, as they attempt to play the beautiful game for the first time since Joe Royle 1984 to 1987. Only a 50 years wait!

Unless CP have unearthed a RDZ, I think they might be in the relegation mix next season.

 

[Hastings gull]

What a load of bollocks. The appeal decision is as weak as warm piss..

10 points was a nice fit as 1/2 point per £M over. Allowing the appeal stuffs that, encourages appeals and breeds uncertainty.

The extra income those extra placings allow makes the £20M overspend even more worth it.

KUNNTS

I don't profess to know too much about the ins and outs of the whole saga, and thus would not comment in depth on this situation, though it does seem odd that after weeks of deliberation over their initial punishment, they now decide that it was unfair! Just in general -if clubs do cheat, and with financial people employed given the millions involved it surely can't be accidental - then weak sanctions would surely risk the likelihood of clubs being prepared to take a chance. If the punishment is only say between 4 and 6 points, and this relatively low deduction would mean that you could still stay in the PL, then cheating will have been worth it.

 

[Official Old Man]

So, I'm driving along the motorway, at 90 mph, and get flashed by a speed camera. At the same time, a really expensive (sky blue) Ferrari goes tearing past at 110 mph, weaving in and out of lanes. The driver is on his phone, tries to evade chasing police, and gives a false name when eventually stopped.

I get a £60 fixed penalty notice through the letterbox two weeks later, whereas apparently the other guy's case is *more complex* and he's COMPLETELY ESCAPED PUNISHMENT (while he waits for a court date).

Its so unfair, and everyone should feel sorry for me. Or something.

You get a £100 fine, reduced to £60.
Then, a year later, Ferrari driver turns up in court with his expensive legal team and the cases are dropped.

 

[Easy 10]

It always looked at the time as though that 10 point deduction was made fully in the knowledge that there would inevitably be an appeal. This left some "wiggle room" to adjust it down after the endless scouse bleating.

Its a mess of a decision though. There was NO new evidence presented in mitigation to reduce the severity of the punishment, so I really do not see on what grounds they got 4 points back. It undermines the entire process, and sets an unhelpful precedent for others to now follow - which Forest and Everton undoubtedly will when the next round of punishments are dished out.

Personally I would give leeway for an INCREASE in the points deduction if the appeal is found to be 'frivolous', a bit like when clubs appealed to turn over a red card but the player ends up with an extra games ban if the decision is upheld (do they still do that ?). That might put off the likes of Everton going down the appeal route in the first place.

Either that, or the tariff goes up for 2nd, 3rd, 4th+ offenses. So Everton have copped a 6 point deduction for this offence. They get an 8 point deduction for the next one currently being looked at, then 10 points and so on.

That'll do em.

 

[DavePage]

Impressive facilities at the new Everton Stadium, it boasts to have Europes largest whine bar.

Surely second offence should increase the points deduction, here’s hoping

 

[Wardy's twin]

To be boring (and I completely understand why it seems this isn't the way), one club is not being punished when other (worse - yes) culprits are not. The reality is there are currently quite a few ongoing investigations going on by the PL that are likely to result in breaches. Investigations and sentencing will naturally finish at different times because they are not the same cases or the same issues.

The way I see it is that there are two levels of alleged breaches.

Firstly, you have the Evertons and the Forests of the world. For these clubs, the cards are on the table and without oversimplifying everything, they basically broke FFP because they failed to balance their losses through player sales in the necessary timeframe. This has resulted in them losing more than they agreed to and they've both basically accepted that this happened and been charged for it and are continuing to collaborate with the Premier League as they move towards a punishment. They both believe they have accentuating circumstances that should be taken into account.

Secondly, you have the Man Citys and Chelseas of the world. Man City deny any wrongdoing and both have some serious allegations being thrown at them. Because of the nature of those allegations (not correctly declaring payments in their accounts in Chelsea's case and an endless list for City) we are looking at charges that are a) historic, and b) far more damning than simply overspending.

My opinion is that when cases like City's are concluded, no one will even think of mentioning Everton as a frame of reference. They are almost incomparable in scale and hopefully the punishment will reflect that eventually. Because they're such different cases in size and complexity, they're taking longer to conclude and each case must be treated individually on its own merits. Whilst I understand that right now it seems as if only one club have received punishment, the reality is that only one club have received punishment yet. More will come - this is just the start.

Thanks for this. Is there a cut off date for proving the 'historic' cases ?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Everton are absolutely screwed financially, 777 take over is unlikely now and they have been propping them up, They have put in around £120 million as loans to keep the club running, they have taken out loans with high interest which need paying back.

https://theesk.org/2024/02/25/how-moshiri-can-end-evertons-paralysis-now/

A long read, but shows what a shit show the club is.

Just read that. Thanks for posting

Everton in a such a staggering amount of debt that this points deduction must seem like a side issue

We, more than any fans must know that a club can turn things around from a horrendous situation with the right owners, but they basically need a benevolent billionaire prepared to wipe off millions in debt. I just see, firesales, administration and relegation as a much more likely outcome in the coming years

 

[Wardy's twin]

It always looked at the time as though that 10 point deduction was made fully in the knowledge that there would inevitably be an appeal. This left some "wiggle room" to adjust it down after the endless scouse bleating.

Its a mess of a decision though. There was NO new evidence presented in mitigation to reduce the severity of the punishment, so I really do not see on what grounds they got 4 points back. It undermines the entire process, and sets an unhelpful precedent for others to now follow - which Forest and Everton undoubtedly will when the next round of punishments are dished out.

Personally I would give leeway for an INCREASE in the points deduction if the appeal is found to be 'frivolous', a bit like when clubs appealed to turn over a red card but the player ends up with an extra games ban if the decision is upheld (do they still do that ?). That might put off the likes of Everton going down the appeal route in the first place.

Either that, or the tariff goes up for 2nd, 3rd, 4th+ offenses. So Everton have copped a 6 point deduction for this offence. They get an 8 point deduction for the next one currently being looked at, then 10 points and so on.

That'll do em.

Mind you it does some what reflect our criminal justice system - sentenced to 5 years but out in 3.

 

[Insel affe]

Just read that. Thanks for posting

Everton in a such a staggering amount of debt that this points deduction must seem like a side issue

We, more than any fans must know that a club can turn things around from a horrendous situation with the right owners, but they basically need a benevolent billionaire prepared to wipe off millions in debt. I just see, firesales, administration and relegation as a much more likely outcome in the coming years

I feckin hope so, hate them, entitled bunch of delusional folk.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Just read that. Thanks for posting

Everton in a such a staggering amount of debt that this points deduction must seem like a side issue

We, more than any fans must know that a club can turn things around from a horrendous situation with the right owners, but they basically need a benevolent billionaire prepared to wipe off millions in debt. I just see, firesales, administration and relegation as a much more likely outcome in the coming years

One massive hit, enforced relegation, administration, and hundreds of creditors stiffed.

And will then be massively ripe for a takeover - a big club on the cheap, with a huge fanbase, with a brand new state-of-the-art stadium.

It probably isn't a great long term strategy for the current owners, but for the club / fans - I can only see short term suffering followed by a 'glorious' return to the top level.

 

[Beanstalk]

Thanks for this. Is there a cut off date for proving the 'historic' cases ?

For UEFA they have a statute of limitations of five years. For the Premier League none at all.

In 2019, Man City were found guilty of having "overstated sponsorship payments" from 2012/13 but that they couldn't be punished for it as the cut off date had well passed. They also couldn't be punished because evidence of rule-breaking came from leaks published in Der Spiegel which were allegedly obtained in an illegal manner. Therefore, UEFA's big gotchas were essentially thrown out on technicalities.

The Premier League doesn't have any of these same limitations. And it also, fairly importantly, cannot be referred to CAS if either side appeal any punishment. The Premier League has its own separate, independent, appeals process.

So, in short, the hurdles that the UEFA case fell apart at, are not in place for the Premier League, and the Premier League case is far further reaching than UEFA's.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Just read that. Thanks for posting

Everton in a such a staggering amount of debt that this points deduction must seem like a side issue

We, more than any fans must know that a club can turn things around from a horrendous situation with the right owners, but they basically need a benevolent billionaire prepared to wipe off millions in debt. I just see, firesales, administration and relegation as a much more likely outcome in the coming years

Not sure if its as easy as that , Bloom is pretty unique in as much as he was a fan with a lot of money taking on a club whose debts were tiny (in comparison) and with a fan base whose objectives were stability , not winning the PL so a lot less pressure on him and his managers. Progress was made over 12 years , don't think big clubs have that in them its all instant success or failure.

 

[Wardy's twin]

For UEFA they have a statute of limitations of five years. For the Premier League none at all.

In 2019, Man City were found guilty of having "overstated sponsorship payments" from 2012/13 but that they couldn't be punished for it as the cut off date had well passed. They also couldn't be punished because evidence of rule-breaking came from leaks published in Der Spiegel which were allegedly obtained in an illegal manner. Therefore, UEFA's big gotchas were essentially thrown out on technicalities.

The Premier League doesn't have any of these same limitations. And it also, fairly importantly, cannot be referred to CAS if either side appeal any punishment. The Premier League has its own separate, independent, appeals process.

So, in short, the hurdles that the UEFA case fell apart at, are not in place for the Premier League, and the Premier League case is far further reaching than UEFA's.

thanks.

Is it right that if Chelsea were to qualify for Europe they would face European FFP charges?

 

[rippleman]

Because it as one case and was fairly simple to deal with. Annoyingly the City case is ludicrously complicated and will take longer to prosecute. It's annoying but due process has to be followed, just pointing at City and saying they are obviously guilty will not cut the legal mustard. They will get theirs, eventually.

Then isn't the answer that they take the most simple, straightforward charge first and impose the points deduction.

Then the second most complex breach, and punish that.

Don't try dealing with them all in one hit. That is asking for errors and oversights to be made.

On R4 this morning they were suggesting that Man City wont be punished until (at the earliest) the end of NEXT season. Bloody incompotence again.

Fit & Proper ownership test - screwed up and not properly applied
VAR - complete joke
FFP - overly complex, too slow, too many "loopholes", bonuses for barristers

The administrators are ruining the game.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Then isn't the answer that they take the most simple, straightforward charge first and impose the points deduction.

Then the second most complex breach, and punish that.

Don't try dealing with them all in one hit. That is asking for errors and oversights to be made.

On R4 this morning they were suggesting that Man City wont be punished until (at the earliest) the end of NEXT season. Bloody incompotence again.

Fit & Proper ownership test - screwed up and not properly applied
VAR - complete joke
FFP - overly complex, too slow, too many "loopholes", bonuses for barristers

The administrators are ruining the game.

No, as it seems they are all linked, plus on of the charges is not working with the league with over hangs all the charges.

 

[rippleman]

No, as it seems they are all linked, plus on of the charges is not working with the league with over hangs all the charges.

They are only getting away with dragging it out because they are being allowed to.

PL wants information, they request it, set a deadline to provide it and impose a points and/or financial penalty if they don't meet the deadline. It's really not difficult if there was a will amongst the administrators to get it done. FFP was always far too complex. The more complex you make the rules, the easier it becomes to find loopholes.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Then isn't the answer that they take the most simple, straightforward charge first and impose the points deduction.

Then the second most complex breach, and punish that.

Don't try dealing with them all in one hit. That is asking for errors and oversights to be made.

On R4 this morning they were suggesting that Man City wont be punished until (at the earliest) the end of NEXT season. Bloody incompotence again.

Fit & Proper ownership test - screwed up and not properly applied
VAR - complete joke
FFP - overly complex, too slow, too many "loopholes", bonuses for barristers

The administrators are ruining the game.

This question has already been answered on this thread by a poster with more patience than I. The answer is sadly No. (I wish it was not)

 

[southstandandy]

The problem is now, if 6 points is seen as the penalty, what's to stop the likes of Chelsea, Newcastle, Man City with their rich backers just spending billions (if they wish) knowing that the probable success would likely out weigh the effects of a 6 point deduction, which is realistically do able if trying to scramble into the top 4 and Champions League places?

Seems to me there should be a set standard that says for every £1m over you get a 1 point deduction.