Europe: In or Out

[brighton fella]

It can never level out as long as our government pursues a policy of growth.

Its actually an interesting coalition this, right-wing anti-europe peoples and left-wing anti-captalist types.

trouble is with the left they always seem to confuse capitalism for corporatism, what we are undergoing right now is corporatism not capitalism..

true capitalism if regulated properly works for anyone who is prepared to sacrifice hard graft in return for prosperity...

 

[The Merry Prankster]

trouble is with the left they always seem to confuse capitalism for corporatism, what we are undergoing right now is corporatism not capitalism..

true capitalism if regulated properly works for anyone who is prepared to sacrifice hard graft in return for prosperity...

How well does it work for those who aren't?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

trouble is with the left they always seem to confuse capitalism for corporatism, what we are undergoing right now is corporatism not capitalism..

true capitalism if regulated properly works for anyone who is prepared to sacrifice hard graft in return for prosperity...

"True capitalism" and regulations. Are you getting a bit confused?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Unfortunately this shows how duplicitous this negotiation process really is and how a UK Prime Minister has to go cap in hand to the German Chancellor to ask if we can have a bit more control over our borders. Humiliating and embarrassing.

If the out campaign had any coherent strategy they would be banging on about this as many people seem to think his recent publicly announced negotiation position was the start.

Need to be careful, people might think they are getting a good deal here.

The two groups are Grassroots Out and Leave EU
http://grassrootsout.co.uk/
http://leave.eu/

[url]http://www.fudgeoff.eu/#homepage
[/URL]

 

[Gwylan]

"True capitalism" and regulations. Are you getting a bit confused?

Don't think he is necessarily.

If you look at the works of Adam Smith, generally regarded as the founding father of capitalist economics, he talks often of the need for the government to step in - for example, in breaking up monopolies or in implementing relief for the poor. He was quite happy for the rich to be taxed more heavily and advocated a property tax " A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable."

He was very dismissive of the notion of people being motivated solely by self-interest and greed "All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."

I've often thought that an interesting idea for a TV programme would be Adam Smith coming back to 21st century London and commenting on what he saw. I think the idea that he'd enthusiastically embrace the Conservative Party would be very wide of the mark

 

[brighton fella]

The country wasn't doing 'reasonably fine' before Tony Blair's decision (mistaken, but not 'purposely orchestrated') to allow in migrants from new EU countries. It has been sliding down most European league tables faster than an Alan Pardew football team since the 50s. We really mustn't imagine some golden pre-EU age that didn't exist. On your other points, I don't have figures but I would have thought that the effect of EU migration on the quality of the NHS's service is, on balance, benign. And you're wrong about pensioners getting an ever-worsening deal - because the over-65s are more likely to vote, they have been looked after better than other groups in recent years.

lets get this straight, so you reckon blair didn't purposely orchestrate mass immigration...wrong.. one of his cheif advisers has already admitted publicly that blair purposely did it to rub it into the noses of the right.
don't lie the NHS has never been so bad as it is today and that is all down to a dramatic rise in population i.e, immigration., blaming the old for this mess is frankly a feeble excuse and one that is running a bit thin with me..
oday's pensioners (care wise) get a shocking deal,.a lot are just left to rot on the scrapheap, .i have witnessed this with my own eyes. , our hospitals care homes and home carers ..all lack the amount of staff required for caring. no money in the pot is the excuse given,.
a serious lack in school places...are you going to deny that one as well

.

 

[brighton fella]

"True capitalism" and regulations. Are you getting a bit confused?

no, work it out for yourself.

 

[melias shoes]

I bow to others in my knowledge of this subject, but I am sure I have seen that EU migrants in the UK are disproportionately of working age - they tend to arrive as fit young adults and leave before they come old. They rely on the state less than than the rest of us.

Really? All the immigrants I've worked with are young it's true but won't be leaving before they get old. They have no intention of going back home.They know where they're better off. I should know I just asked them.

 

[5ways]

Unfortunately this shows how duplicitous this negotiation process really is and how a UK Prime Minister has to go cap in hand to the German Chancellor to ask if we can have a bit more control over our borders. Humiliating and embarrassing.

If the out campaign had any coherent strategy they would be banging on about this as many people seem to think his recent publicly announced negotiation position was the start.

I'm not sure. With any negotiation you start high and work towards the middle. There is no point low-balling from the get-go - it's a legitimate strategy and this could be a better deal for it.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

U

lets get this straight, so you reckon blair didn't purposely orchestrate mass immigration...wrong.. one of his cheif advisers has already admitted publicly that blair purposely did it to rub it into the noses of the right.
don't lie the NHS has never been so bad as it is today and that is all down to a dramatic rise in population i.e, immigration., blaming the old for this mess is frankly a feeble excuse and one that is running a bit thin with me..
oday's pensioners (care wise) get a shocking deal,.a lot are just left to rot on the scrapheap, .i have witnessed this with my own eyes. , our hospitals care homes and home carers ..all lack the amount of staff required for caring. no money in the pot is the excuse given,.
a serious lack in school places...are you going to deny that one as well

.

Extraordinary. You attack me for saying things I haven't said. What was it in my original post that led to you calling me a liar? And out of interest, who was the chief advisor who said that Blair 'did it to rub it into the noses of the right'? As far as the old are concerned I have blamed them for nothing - compared to other demographic groups they have done relatively well out of recent budgets but that's not their fault and I didn't say it was.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Really? All the immigrants I've worked with are young it's true but won't be leaving before they get old. They have no intention of going back home.They know where they're better off. I should know I just asked them.

As I said, I bow to others in my knowledge of young EU immigrants' long term plans. If you know (because you asked them) that that they intend to stay until they grow old then I suppose you must be right.

 

[brighton fella]

U

Extraordinary. You attack me for saying things I haven't said. What was it in my original post that led to you calling me a liar? And out of interest, who was the chief advisor who said that Blair 'did it to rub it into the noses of the right'? As far as the old are concerned I have blamed them for nothing - compared to other demographic groups they have done relatively well out of recent budgets but that's not their fault and I didn't say it was.

apologies for calling you a liar and apologies for wrongly accusing you of words that: you never said.,
that aside you must see whereabouts i am coming from

 

[Lincoln Imp]

apologies for calling you a liar and apologies for wrongly accusing you of words that: you never said.,
that aside you must see whereabouts i am coming from

Accepted of course, and I certainly see where you are coming from.

 

[Hughton]

On the fence, V.A.T in EU as a small business kills me, if i could still have that market but not lose 20% to the VAT man for every sale in the EU I would be a lot more comfortable.

 

[Gwylan]

On the fence, V.A.T in EU as a small business kills me, if i could still have that market but not lose 20% to the VAT man for every sale in the EU I would be a lot more comfortable.

VAT replaced purchase tax in the UK: this could be as high as 33% and was certainly more complex, with an array of different rates and exceptions. VAT is considerably simpler and cheaper than the alternative

 

[Hughton]

VAT replaced purchase tax in the UK: this could be as high as 33% and was certainly more complex, with an array of different rates and exceptions. VAT is considerably simpler and cheaper than the alternative

I stand corrected and a little wiser? I am a young business man. So are you involved in business and Pro EU?

 

[Hughton]

I stand corrected and a little wiser? I am a young business man. So are you involved in business and Pro EU?

I purchase from outside the EU but many of my customer base is in the EU

 

[Gwylan]

I stand corrected and a little wiser? I am a young business man. So are you involved in business and Pro EU?

I'm self-employed and am old enough to remember purchase tax (although I was at school then, I remember it was a real pain to calculate). No. I'm not pro-EU but do recognise there are some advantages to VAT.

You also have to remember that VAT was originally 8% and the Thatcher government's policy was to reduce income tax (which it did) and raise indirect taxes (VAT and duty on petrol, fags and booze - which it also did). Any attempt to reduce these taxes will certainly mean an income tax rise

 

[brighton fella]

Accepted of course, and I certainly see where you are coming from.

i think blairs advisers name was andrew neather,

 

[Hughton]

I'm self-employed and am old enough to remember purchase tax (although I was at school then, I remember it was a real pain to calculate). No. I'm not pro-EU but do recognise there are some advantages to VAT.

You also have to remember that VAT was originally 8% and the Thatcher government's policy was to reduce income tax (which it did) and raise indirect taxes (VAT and duty on petrol, fags and booze - which it also did). Any attempt to reduce these taxes will certainly mean an income tax rise

To be honest with you, I already feel FK'ed over, (while i respect the fact that first time buyers need a break, I don't believe their (the government's) agenda with these new policies" I am fortunate enough to have a couple of buy to lets and they are leaving me pretty screwed.

I don't have a clue whats best for UK in or OUT but I have a Vote.... and I was bought up to think of the wider population and not only myself and to remember where I come from, never been interested in politics until now but i guess this is a big thing, I watched a documentary the other day about Ukraine and how some of their people were so desperate to be involved in the EU they were willing to die.. but in my uneducated mind it was Europe or Russia, could we be a Switzerland? or am I completely misinterpreting the whole thing?