Europe: In or Out

[cunning fergus]

Japan is a really good example. The country is beginning to accept that its hostility to immigration is causing it serious problems which is why it's looking at taking off the brakes - not without some serious debate and a reluctance to relax the policy.

One of those articles sets out the problem clearly: "According to a government statistical projection of Japan’s population issued in January 2012, if current trends are maintained, the population will decline from the 128.06 million in 2010 to 86.24 million by 2060, with people over age 65 accounting for 40% of the total. More worrisome, the working population—regarded for statistical purposes as people between the ages of 15 and 64—- dropping from 82 million to 44 million."

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...ers-its-shores-bestselling-author-calls-their
http://www.japantoday.com/category/...on-the-way-to-becoming-a-nation-of-immigrants

Germany has similar problems: which is why Merkel's desire to house more refugees isn't entirely altruistic

Check out Sweden...............no wonder some are a bit grabby.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35444173

 

[Hamilton]

No, I am highlighting the savage consequences of EU trade sanctions on Russia for farmers particularly in eastern europe and contrasting it with the relationship the ESA has with Russia.

As the ESA's funding is only from the EU and the national governments in Europe (note taxpayers are stung twice), and the objectives of ESA are shared with the EU Commission why is it that EU taxpayers money is being transferred to Russia so that ESA has astronauts in space?

At a time when we are entering a new cold war with Russia this relationship seems strange and at odds with the EU's objectives of isolating Russia on the world stage.

Who do you think should get the millions of euros?

Russia for sending Tim Peake into space, or Farmers crippled by the loss of acces to the Russian market?

Perhaps such relationships will stop us entering into a new cold war?

 

[dingodan]

For those people who think that politics helps trade, it's actually the other way around.

You don't achieve better trade through political relationships, you achieve better political relationships through trade.

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."

- Thomas Jefferson

 

[WonderingSoton]

I an pro immigration. We need immigration. But why do we have to be open for anyone and everyone from the EU? Thus making us clamp down on non EU migration as a vain attempt to balance numbers?

Why can't we have one migration policy applied equally across any nationality regardless of where the applicant comes from.

I want to us to be able to blend skills from across the world into our work force. Educated skilled workers should always be welcome here.
I want us to lead the world in providing safety for the desperate, life threatened, war fleeing of the world.

I want us to focus on those two areas when deciding on migration.
Not whether they hold an EU passport = let them in, or are from outside the EU = apply really harsh criteria because it's the only way to keep numbers down to levels we can handle.

Let's ditch the two tier migration system that is forced upon us from Brussels. And instead let's apply our own single migration policy that does not discriminate based on passport or nationality.

 

[5ways]

For those people who think that politics helps trade, it's actually the other way around.

You don't achieve better trade through political relationships, you achieve better political relationships through trade.

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."

- Thomas Jefferson

I'm glad Jefferson wasn't around in 1941.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I an pro immigration. We need immigration. But why do we have to be open for anyone and everyone from the EU? Thus making us clamp down on non EU migration as a vain attempt to balance numbers?

Why can't we have one migration policy applied equally across any nationality regardless of where the applicant comes from.

I want to us to be able to blend skills from across the world into our work force. Educated skilled workers should always be welcome here.
I want us to lead the world in providing safety for the desperate, life threatened, war fleeing of the world.

I want us to focus on those two areas when deciding on migration.
Not whether they hold an EU passport = let them in, or are from outside the EU = apply really harsh criteria because it's the only way to keep numbers down to levels we can handle.

Let's ditch the two tier migration system that is forced upon us from Brussels. And instead let's apply our own single migration policy that does not discriminate based on passport or nationality.

Unless the EU rules change we will have open borders forever, they are never going to budge on it. If we leave then we have every chance of putting in the immigration system we need.

 

[5ways]

good vibes, good vibes: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...k-germany-national-interest-cameron-justified

 

[Soulman]

I an pro immigration. We need immigration. But why do we have to be open for anyone and everyone from the EU? Thus making us clamp down on non EU migration as a vain attempt to balance numbers?

Why can't we have one migration policy applied equally across any nationality regardless of where the applicant comes from.

I want to us to be able to blend skills from across the world into our work force. Educated skilled workers should always be welcome here.
I want us to lead the world in providing safety for the desperate, life threatened, war fleeing of the world.

I want us to focus on those two areas when deciding on migration.
Not whether they hold an EU passport = let them in, or are from outside the EU = apply really harsh criteria because it's the only way to keep numbers down to levels we can handle.

Let's ditch the two tier migration system that is forced upon us from Brussels. And instead let's apply our own single migration policy that does not discriminate based on passport or nationality.

I thought that a poster put up figures to show that more came in from NON EU countries than EU countries. Their argument was that why did our government not stop the NON EU migrants and stop blaming the immigration and getting out of the EU on immigration from the EU.
I happen to agree that there is too much immigration from outside the EU, and surely it should be lower than EU immigration because as we are in the EU it seems that they "should" get priority.
Stricter CONTROL outside as well as inside, but surely our government can control the NON EU immigration easier than get around the rules of EU immigration.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

good vibes, good vibes: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...k-germany-national-interest-cameron-justified

So say Cameron does manage to stop Child Benefit for four years, when what he should have really gone for was to talk about the issue of open borders. Basically he has gone against the wishes and concerns of millions of people in this country.

 

[5ways]

So say Cameron does manage to stop Child Benefit for four years, when what he should have really gone for was to talk about the issue of open borders. Basically he has gone against the wishes and concerns of millions of people in this country.

Cameron never tried to prevent free movement, he's not against it an it's essential to the idea of Europe. Unburden yourself of thoughts of separation, talk a walk. Take a Grand Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Cameron never tried to prevent free movement, he's not against it an it's essential to the idea of Europe. Unburden yourself of thoughts of separation, talk a walk. Take a Grand Tour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour

I'm not going around in circles, but I will give you credit 5 ways, at least you have not been on here calling us Outers silly names like others have done in the past. I can't unburden my thoughts. I love France, I love the people, I love the cheese, but I hate the stinking EU the way it works and operates.

 

[Gwylan]

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."

- Thomas Jefferson

Said one of the founders of the United States, a country set up when the American insurgents entered into an, er, alliance with the Dutch, the Spanish and, especially, the French

 

[5ways]

I'm not going around in circles, but I will give you credit 5 ways, at least you have not been on here calling us Outers silly names like others have done in the past. I can't unburden my thoughts.

I'm girding myself for the Cameron deal thread. Can't the despotic and unelected EU Commission distribute the approved talking points now so I can get my ducks in order?

 

[dingodan]

Said one of the founders of the United States, a country set up when the American insurgents entered into an, er, alliance with the Dutch, the Spanish and, especially, the French

Ad hominem tu quoque (literally: "You also") refers to a claim that the source making the argument has spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with the argument. In particular, if Source A criticizes the actions of Source B, a tu quoque response is that Source A has acted in the same way. This argument is false because it does not disprove the premise; if the premise is true then Source A may be a hypocrite, but this does not make the statement less credible from a logical perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Cameron never tried to prevent free movement, he's not against it an it's essential to the idea of Europe......

Didn't he?

The prime minister has insisted that freedom of movement of workers would be "at the very heart of my renegotiation strategy for Europe".

But Mrs Merkel is said by the magazine to have made clear she will withdraw her support for the UK's continued EU membership if he continues to push for migration reform which requires fundamental changes to the principles of the organisation.

'Britain first'

The German chancellor's warning to Mr Cameron is reported to have come in a meeting on the fringes of the latest EU summit in Brussels last week.

Der Spiegel, quoting sources within the German chancellor's office and German foreign ministry, said this was the first time Mrs Merkel had acknowledged that the UK's exit from the EU was possible.

"Should Cameron persist (in this plan), Chancellor Angela Merkel would abandon her efforts to keep Britain in the EU," it quoted the sources as saying.

"With that a point of no return would be reached. That would be it then."

According to the Sunday Times, Germany has already rejected a proposal to impose quotas on low-skilled EU migrants by limiting the national insurance numbers issued to them.

Der Spiegel reported that Mr Cameron was now looking at a plan to stretch the EU rules "to their limits" in order to ban migrants who do not have a job, and to deport those who are unable to support themselves after three months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29874392

In the beginning he did try for real significant change but Merkel sent him away with his tail between his legs.

Remember this when you try to make out the paltry offerings he presents in the coming days are a significant big win for Cameron's negotiating skills and the UK.

 

[Gwylan]

Ad hominem tu quoque (literally: "You also") refers to a claim that the source making the argument has spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with the argument. In particular, if Source A criticizes the actions of Source B, a tu quoque response is that Source A has acted in the same way. This argument is false because it does not disprove the premise; if the premise is true then Source A may be a hypocrite, but this does not make the statement less credible from a logical perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

I wasn't making any comment on the logical consistency of Jefferson's statement (as someone who very nearly became a lecturer in logic, I'm fully aware of such things). My point was that Jefferson was being a tad hypocritical in saying it.

But then, what can you expect from the man who wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal ..." yet owned more than 600 slaves in his lifetime?

 

[dingodan]

I wasn't making any comment on the logical consistency of Jefferson's statement.

Exactly.

 

[5ways]

Didn't he?

The prime minister has insisted that freedom of movement of workers would be "at the very heart of my renegotiation strategy for Europe".

But Mrs Merkel is said by the magazine to have made clear she will withdraw her support for the UK's continued EU membership if he continues to push for migration reform which requires fundamental changes to the principles of the organisation.

'Britain first'

The German chancellor's warning to Mr Cameron is reported to have come in a meeting on the fringes of the latest EU summit in Brussels last week.

Der Spiegel, quoting sources within the German chancellor's office and German foreign ministry, said this was the first time Mrs Merkel had acknowledged that the UK's exit from the EU was possible.

"Should Cameron persist (in this plan), Chancellor Angela Merkel would abandon her efforts to keep Britain in the EU," it quoted the sources as saying.

"With that a point of no return would be reached. That would be it then."

According to the Sunday Times, Germany has already rejected a proposal to impose quotas on low-skilled EU migrants by limiting the national insurance numbers issued to them.

Der Spiegel reported that Mr Cameron was now looking at a plan to stretch the EU rules "to their limits" in order to ban migrants who do not have a job, and to deport those who are unable to support themselves after three months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29874392

In the beginning he did try for real significant change but Merkel sent him away with his tail between his legs.

Remember this when you try to make out the paltry offerings he presents in the coming days are a significant big win for Cameron's negotiating skills and the UK.

Fair enough I actually thought this was the starting point. I assume Cameron knew it was no-go - but had to say otherwise.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Didn't he?

The prime minister has insisted that freedom of movement of workers would be "at the very heart of my renegotiation strategy for Europe".

But Mrs Merkel is said by the magazine to have made clear she will withdraw her support for the UK's continued EU membership if he continues to push for migration reform which requires fundamental changes to the principles of the organisation.

'Britain first'

The German chancellor's warning to Mr Cameron is reported to have come in a meeting on the fringes of the latest EU summit in Brussels last week.

Der Spiegel, quoting sources within the German chancellor's office and German foreign ministry, said this was the first time Mrs Merkel had acknowledged that the UK's exit from the EU was possible.

"Should Cameron persist (in this plan), Chancellor Angela Merkel would abandon her efforts to keep Britain in the EU," it quoted the sources as saying.

"With that a point of no return would be reached. That would be it then."

According to the Sunday Times, Germany has already rejected a proposal to impose quotas on low-skilled EU migrants by limiting the national insurance numbers issued to them.

Der Spiegel reported that Mr Cameron was now looking at a plan to stretch the EU rules "to their limits" in order to ban migrants who do not have a job, and to deport those who are unable to support themselves after three months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29874392

In the beginning he did try for real significant change but Merkel sent him away with his tail between his legs.

Remember this when you try to make out the paltry offerings he presents in the coming days are a significant big win for Cameron's negotiating skills and the UK.

The politicians seem to be forgetting, as they get their hands dirty in this issue, is that its not what Cameron, Merkel or anyone else decides, its what the Bristish people decide. Its getting grubbier and grubbier.

I am prepared to walk away

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Fair enough I actually thought this was the starting point. I assume Cameron knew it was no-go - but had to say otherwise.

Unfortunately this shows how duplicitous this negotiation process really is and how a UK Prime Minister has to go cap in hand to the German Chancellor to ask if we can have a bit more control over our borders. Humiliating and embarrassing.

If the out campaign had any coherent strategy they would be banging on about this as many people seem to think his recent publicly announced negotiation position was the start.