Europe again. Unaccountable and undemocratic. This sums it up.

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's really not that difficult. We want to trade with Europe, be part of Europe but we don't to be governed by Europe. That seems fair to me and a lot of other people.

Like Switzerland and Norway?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Like Switzerland and Norway?

Switzerland seems to do OK.

 

[Gullflyinghigh]

Where did the Celts, the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans, and all the other tribes that have invaded the British isles and still make up the vast bulk of the population today come from then, if not Europe?

Read the rest of that post, do you really think you're going to get a sensible answer?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Switzerland seems to do OK.

Sure. But, to trade with the EU block they have had to sign up to the 4 freedoms of movement (services, labour, capital, goods). You have to, just like Norway and just like the UK will. This means they abide by the same rules as all other EU members but have no vote or influence in the rules which are passed down to them. Surely you don't want this?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Quite, hence I wrote "Not necessarily leave". I was putting my take onto his thoughts.

But I have an EU passport. And you want to strip me and Plooks of our identity, literally. I don't care who I get the passport from but I prefer an EU passport thanks.

So you get your identity from a nonexistent and fictitious country. That's a little bit odd.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Quite, hence I wrote "Not necessarily leave". I was putting my take onto his thoughts.

But I have an EU passport. And you want to strip me and Plooks of our identity, literally. I don't care who I get the passport from but I prefer an EU passport thanks.

But you can keep your identity by just getting say a German EU passport. My identity - i.e. I want to be British, hold a British ONLY passport and a British driving licence - has already been stripped from me without me having any say whatsoever. So if you and Plooks are so keen to stay European then apply for another EU members passport.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Where did the Celts, the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans, and all the other tribes that have invaded the British isles and still make up the vast bulk of the population today come from then, if not Europe?

...and thus so are all the other countries of Europe made up. We had native tribes here before any large scale invasion took place and so did most other countries in Europe. North America doesn't regard itself as inextricably linked with Europe just because of the majority of its settlers came from Europe.
It doesn't stop a country wanting an individual identity and not wanting to be absorbed into a political and economic union, that has German self-interest at the heart of it. People have been hoodwinked into believing that it is vital for us and our economy that we are members.The political and bureaucratic elite love it. It is rotten to the core with fraud and corruption. They can't even sign off their accounts, so many billions have gone missing and yet we are allowing them to draw up rules and regulations that govern our daily lives.
Too many people are going through their daily lives passively accepting that this is the best deal for us without exploring and examining other options.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Read the rest of that post, do you really think you're going to get a sensible answer?

See a recent reply.

 

[Triggaaar]

There was always going to be an agreement. not sure waht the fuss is

Quite

But this thread isn't about the fact that there's been an agreement, it's that the EU plan to use funds (including British funds) that they agreed they wouldn't use. That's what the fuss is about.

Where did the Celts, the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans, and all the other tribes that have invaded the British isles and still make up the vast bulk of the population today come from then, if not Europe?

Africa.

Sure. But, to trade with the EU block they have had to sign up to the 4 freedoms of movement (services, labour, capital, goods). You have to, just like Norway and just like the UK will. This means they abide by the same rules as all other EU members but have no vote or influence in the rules which are passed down to them. Surely you don't want this?

We already have to abide by the rules and effectively have no say, because we're out-voted by all the other countries that don't share our vision. And we have to pay for the privelage of being out-voted. We might as well be like Switzerland, have the freedom of movement, and save a shed load of cash.

 

[fruitnveg]

Sure. But, to trade with the EU block they have had to sign up to the 4 freedoms of movement (services, labour, capital, goods). You have to, just like Norway and just like the UK will. This means they abide by the same rules as all other EU members but have no vote or influence in the rules which are passed down to them. Surely you don't want this?

This is patently bollocks. The US, China, India et al do not have to sign up for the 4 freedoms to trade with the EU block. Why should we have to?

 

[Buzzer]

Quite, hence I wrote "Not necessarily leave". I was putting my take onto his thoughts.

But I have an EU passport. And you want to strip me and Plooks of our identity, literally. I don't care who I get the passport from but I prefer an EU passport thanks.

No you don't, you have a British, German or whatever passport-issuing country you got yours from. There is no such thing as an EU passport. Any claims to be stripped of a legal identity is in your mind only. Presumably you mean some sort of cultural identity which is a rather odd claim to make as you yourself have been bemoaning the Greek culture of laziness and tax-evasion whilst holding German culture as the benchmark for all Europeans. Proof that there is no such thing as a European cultural identity even amongst the most ardent Europeans.

I'm guessing that you hold a UK passport and want to experience life the German way. If the UK left the EU then you would still be able to live freely across the EEA the same as Icelandics and Norwegians. You will lose absolutely nothing, not even your fictitious European identity. You know that, we all know that.

 

[Simster]

I have never understood why it is that there is a blindness when talking about the UK being democratic and Europe not.

The president of the EU is elected by MEPs.
The MEPs are elected by the people.

The leader of the conservative party is elected by MPs and peers.
The MPs are elected by the people.
The peers are not.

Which is more democratic?

This. You can also add our head of state to our unelected list.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

I'm guessing that you hold a UK passport and want to experience life the German way. If the UK left the EU then you would still be able to live freely across the EEA the same as Icelandics and Norwegians. You will lose absolutely nothing, not even your fictitious European identity. You know that, we all know that.

You seem to be assuming here that the UK would remain a member of the EEA. If the UK votes to leave the EU then I don't see this as feasible.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I have never understood why it is that there is a blindness when talking about the UK being democratic and Europe not.

The president of the EU is elected by MEPs.
The MEPs are elected by the people.

The leader of the conservative party is elected by MPs and peers.
The MPs are elected by the people.
The peers are not.

Which is more democratic?

Not exactly correct.

The leader of the Tory Party or Labour Party is elected as leader of the party by it's members.
The Prime Minister is elected as an MP by the electorate and by the fact he / she is the party leader they become PM if their party has the required majority ( leaving hung parliaments out of it for now ).

At no point does the president of the EU get elected by the electorate - he / she gets short listed by deals done behind closed doors and then elected by the MEPs.

Try voting out the EU president - oh silly me you can't because you never get to vote for him. Now move to David Cameron's constituency and you have the chance to unseat him next general election.

 

[Simster]

Not exactly correct.

The leader of the Tory Party or Labour Party is elected as leader of the party by it's members.
The Prime Minister is elected as an MP by the electorate and by the fact he / she is the party leader they become PM if their party has the required majority ( leaving hung parliaments out of it for now ).

At no point does the president of the EU get elected by the electorate - he / she gets short listed by deals done behind closed doors and then elected by the MEPs.

Try voting out the EU president - oh silly me you can't because you never get to vote for him. Now move to David Cameron's constituency and you have the chance to unseat him next general election.

You're cherry picking one aspect of the EU voting mechanism to make your point. What about the fact we have a significant portion of an entire governing house that is unelected thanks to hereditary peerage or is appointed by methods other than an election? Or the fact that our head of state is unelected and invariably NOT subject to various laws of the land? Or the fact that for great swathes of our population, your vote is pretty much irrelevant because of the FPTP system?

We are in no position to preach about lack of EU accountability.

 

[Buzzer]

You seem to be assuming here that the UK would remain a member of the EEA. If the UK votes to leave the EU then I don't see this as feasible.

Scaremongering of the very worst kind. There's no way on Earth that the EU would not allow it. It would cause chaos in the short to medium term as millions of EU citizens in the UK would therefore not be eligible to live/work and UK citizens ineligible to live/work in EU countries. It would cause utter chaos in housing, welfare and employment all across Europe. Do you think Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal want back all those people to sign on the dole in their country? You think that businesses would allow the EU to prevent trade with the second largest economy in Europe because of a decision driven by spite?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Switzerland seems to do OK.

You may think that, but as someone who has worked for a Swiss company for 20 years, I can assure you that it is a MASSIVE ballache. Currency fluctuations are a ballache when quoting our UK (or Eurozone) clients. Customs delays / issues are a daily ballache.

Ballache.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Scaremongering of the very worst kind. There's no way on Earth that the EU would not allow it. It would cause chaos in the short to medium term as millions of EU citizens in the UK would therefore not be eligible to live/work and UK citizens ineligible to live/work in EU countries. It would cause utter chaos in housing, welfare and employment all across Europe. Do you think Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal want back all those people to sign on the dole in their country? You think that businesses would allow the EU to prevent trade with the second largest economy in Europe because of a decision driven by spite?

If we left the EU but stayed in the EEA what would be the immediate benefit? Farage et al are complaining about overcrowding right here and now. Winning a referendum to leave the EU could open the door to a further one to leave the EEA. If it didn't I'd question the point of spending vast sums on a referendum during times of austerity when your average Joe isn't going to understand the benefits,.

 

[Landgull]

This.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This is patently bollocks. The US, China, India et al do not have to sign up for the 4 freedoms to trade with the EU block. Why should we have to?

The US, China and India are not part of Europe though. If European countries want to trade on favourable/similar terms to EU countries they have to sign up to the 4 freedoms. Otherwise the trading block would be pointless.