I would say Brexit's vote completely collapsing is fairly surprising, perhaps you expected it more than I did?
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[Politics] ** EU Elections Poll ** - The vote that we never thought we would get!
- Thread starter Steve Foster
- Start date
I would say Brexit's vote completely collapsing is fairly surprising, perhaps you expected it more than I did?
They're not lies, why are they lies?, and I want to leave the EU with a deal. I just don't want it taken off the table during negotiations.
No matter how much money we waste planning for something that doesn't have enough support in Parliament?
It's not as binary as leave or remain though is it? That's been the massive issue with Labour. But to suggest they were an 100% paid up, confirmed Leave party is disingenuous. They've quite clearly been reluctant Leavers at best but understandably went with the "respect the referendum" line, yet today's news suggests they probably aren't Leavers at all.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
Why have you brought up yet another bafflingly convoluted and irrelevant set of data to the point being made? I don't give a **** about whether Labour win power or not - you have chosen to focus on very specific seats that paint a totally different picture to the wider story (which is obviously the more important one).
I'll ask - if people want Brexit so much, why did 12million people not bother to vote for it this time round?
(There's a simple answer, but I appreciate it's a potentially painful one.)
Because it wasn't a referendum on leaving. When we had one of those, they did vote. To leave. It's pretty stunning that you want to ignore how they voted when the question was asked, but you hold up their not voting when the question wasn't asked as being important evidence of something.
The article doesn't just focus on Labour target seats, it disucsses the wider story, it just uses those as an illustration.
Talk about seeing what you want to see.
Literally all anyone said before the Euro elections was "this is a proxy referendum". There was a party called The Brexit Party, ffs! Couldn't be much clearer what a vote for them meant. The People didn't come out to vote for them.
Do you genuinely think there is still a majority in this country for leaving the EU?
And I think you know you're being disingenuous with that data. It's very specific, and paints a very specific and untrue story, if you attempted to paint it onto the wider picture - as you did.
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dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
The question was about whether any of Labours votes in the EU election should be considered to reflect support for a leave position. You said it was laughable. The reality is that half of Labour voters gave them their votes believing that they were voting for a party committed to leaving.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
All the evidence suggests that there is. The only suggestion that there isn't is from people like you, who when presented with actual evidence and statistics, dismiss them. In favor of your own "facts". It's embarassing. Donald Trump would blush at the mental gymnastics and willful blindness you are resorting to.
If that's the case, then you would happily show the courage of your convictions (as I suggested earlier) and actively support a second referendum which will (undoubtedly) confirm your claim.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
No, I won't. Not because I would have any concerns about the result, but because nobody has any right to demand that the vote we had be rerun. It was said that it would be respected. Before hand and immediately afterwards. It's a matter of principle. It's not about the courage of my convictions, it's about you (and others) living up to and honouring what it means to take part in a vote. Win or lose you accept the result. Demanding a rerun because you lost is dishonourable, no chance I will accept that, and little chance you would accept the result anyway. Why would you if you couldn't accept it the first time around. It's done.
I see. That says it all, really, doesn't it?
No faith at all that it's STILL the 'Will of the people', despite your attempts to 'prove' that it is.
Feeble...quite feeble.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
I see. That says it all, really, doesn't it?
No faith at all that it's STILL the 'Will of the people', despite your attempts to 'prove' that it is.
Feeble...quite feeble.
It does say it all. But what does it say? I'm sure to you it says something it doesn't actually say.
Sums all of this up really doesn't it.
and that is spot on.
It says, quite clearly, that you are unsure that it still really is the 'Will of the people' now....not back then, but 'now'.
But this is the issue isn't it, it's very clear that no one knows what we're meant to be respecting - hence the last 2/3 years!!;
Canada
Canada +
Norway
Customs Union
EEA
Which version are we meant to be respecting? The fact you cannot answer that question proves my point - every single one has failed to get a majority, mostly thanks to Brexiteers in parliament.
You see the issue, and the need for a much more clearly defined referendum, i.e. A specific Brexit vs Remain.
It's increasingly looking like the only way out of this impasse. If you could see another viable way forward I'd genuinely be interested to hear it.
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Give me a single piece of evidence that the majority of this country wishes to leave the EU at present.
You cannot do it without mental gymnastics. Because there isn't a majority.
pb21
Well-known member
- Apr 23, 2010
- 6,689
No deal 'lost' in 2017 when the Tory and Labour manifestos made it explicitly clear we would leave with a deal, and what over 80% of people voted for. That should be respected.
nicko31
Well-known member
I see. That says it all, really, doesn't it?
No faith at all that it's STILL the 'Will of the people', despite your attempts to 'prove' that it is.
Feeble...quite feeble.
I can't be bothered with this argument anymore today, but it bloody funny how a 35% vote for hard Brexit parties suddenly becomes a majority in the country for a no deal Brexit.
Yet more evidence Brexit is now a cult, facts mean nothing. Driven by emotions and feelings nothing else...
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,025
of course they are not full leave like the Brexit single issue party. they are split like Conservatives. we seem to do ourselves a disservice excluding the entire Labour/Conservative vote, lumping into the "neither leave or remain" column, to suit a view that remain won. we're happy to assume Liberals and SNP are all remainer, on the basis of their leadership/manifesto, why not extend this to Labour and Conseravtive? and bear in mind this isnt as hypothetical as you may like, Stephen Lloyd left Liberals to support Brexit, theres evidence there are minority leave view across the other parties.
really the vote didnt tell us much we didnt already know, not a clear victory for either, score draw. the shift to a 2nd referendum for Labour is a sop to some in the party while still not going full remain, treading the tight-rope of the differences between party Leadership, PLP, membership and voters.
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