EU and AstraZeneca

[Green Cross Code Man]

i'd be very much in favour of helping the R.O.I as very close neighbours, but unfortunately for them the EU wouldnt allow that.

Theyre distribution and control is centralised, we'd have to send it to the EU and they would then decide where it goes.

Um, that is so weird.

So if our country wanted to give a specific present to another country in the EU, we wouldn't be able? Or is it just with the distribution of vaccines?

 

[Hampster Gull]

And as likely that Johnson will admit to at least one thing out of the very many that he has got wrong!

Let's not forget our elected government has presided over the worst covid record in Europe and most of the World bar probably the US who had their own imbecile in charge.

The continual lauding of the vaccine programme is merely a smokescreen for what has gone before.

The vaccine roll out has been tremendous, it’s not a smokescreen. And the EU have been a shambles in this.

The rest I agree with. The last 12 months this brexiteer filled cabinet have royally underperformed. It’s like dumb and dumber. There is the usual whataboutery on definitions and small being worse etc but on pretty well every dimension we are one of the worst in the world. The favoured metric seems to be excess deaths and we are shocking, Germany 8k more than usual, the,U.K. 65k. And not just deaths, the economy and gdp too, we are one f the worst. Too many apologists.

 

[vegster]

The Observer leader today....... from the Guardian website....... being very critical of VDL, the whole EU thing about vaccines, having a go at Macron in to the bargain, and saying how urgent it is for them to get their house in order.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-dispute-with-brussels?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Isn't that what they used to call " Objective Reporting " ? I'd love to see this sort of thing spread across the whole print media. If only eh ? Fully expect a front page headline in the Sun/Mail/Express backed by a Union flag along the lines of " Vaccs You ! "

 

[vegster]

The vaccine roll out has been tremendous, it’s not a smokescreen. And the EU have been a shambles in this.

The rest I agree with. The last 12 months this brexiteer filled cabinet have royally underperformed. It’s like dumb and dumber. There is the usual whataboutery on definitions and small being worse etc but on pretty well every dimension we are one of the worst in the world. The favoured metric seems to be excess deaths and we are shocking, Germany 8k more than usual, the,U.K. 65k. And not just deaths, the economy and gdp too, we are one f the worst. Too many apologists.

Shhh ! you're being unpatriotic, the drill is we only look at global league tables that we are near the top of if they are good things, we are not meant to mention how World Beating we are in the bad things.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It’s a shame this has found its way to the Bear Pit. I don’t think this story is finished.
Oh well, the damn has been breached by the usual suspects. Fill your boots
I’m not interested in Bear Pit threads so;

 

[peterward]

The vaccine roll out has been tremendous, it’s not a smokescreen. And the EU have been a shambles in this.

The rest I agree with. The last 12 months this brexiteer filled cabinet have royally underperformed. It’s like dumb and dumber. There is the usual whataboutery on definitions and small being worse etc but on pretty well every dimension we are one of the worst in the world. The favoured metric seems to be excess deaths and we are shocking, Germany 8k more than usual, the,U.K. 65k. And not just deaths, the economy and gdp too, we are one f the worst. Too many apologists.

I agree with you in much of what you say, the government has flip flopped, made mistakes in what is the most challenging dynamic situation any has faced for decades, retrospect gives many answers not available with foresight and without precedent.Thats not an excuse btw.

But as for numbers, that is not something you can just lay at the feet of Johnson, I lived in Germany for 2 years, they generally adhere to rules better than we do, so if theyre told dont do this, you'll find more conformity.....theres a lot of idiots in this country without much of a care for the next guy, a lot of non mask wearing etc all drivers in spread. Plus the biggest factor of all imho, we have the most densely populated country in europe, significantly more people per Sq/m than Germany or others you compare too, this is a factor

Doesnt excuse the care home fiasco, or ignoring lockdown advice from SAGE, but I dont envy those trying to balance on one hand the immediate medical emergency with the immediate, medium and potential long term devastating economic one.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I agree with you in much of what you say, the government has flip flopped, made mistakes in what is the most challenging dynamic situation any has faced for decades, retrospect gives many answers not available with foresight and without precedent.Thats not an excuse btw.

But as for numbers, that is not something you can just lay at the feet of Johnson, I lived in Germany for 2 years, they generally adhere to rules better than we do, so if theyre told dont do this, you'll find more conformity.....theres a lot of idiots in this country without much of a care for the next guy, a lot of non mask wearing etc all drivers in spread. Plus the biggest factor of all imho, we have the most densely populated country in europe, significantly more people per Sq/m than Germany or others you compare too, this is a factor

Doesnt excuse the care home fiasco, or ignoring lockdown advice from SAGE, but I dont envy those trying to balance on one hand the immediate medical emergency with the immediate, medium and potential long term devastating economic one.

Agree on the compliance comparison. We often talk to German companies to learn and when we talk compliance (staff to processes, customers to contractual obligations) they don’t quite comprehend non compliance, I have to position it several times and then they get it and say it’s an immaterial issue for them. A cultural difference, I make no value judgement on it.

But on COVID, genuine question, is there any evidence we are complying at a lower level than any other European culture? The above would indicate against some, yes, say Germany and Sweden, but across the board?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The rest I agree with. The last 12 months this brexiteer filled cabinet have royally underperformed. It’s like dumb and dumber. There is the usual whataboutery on definitions and small being worse etc but on pretty well every dimension we are one of the worst in the world. The favoured metric seems to be excess deaths and we are shocking, Germany 8k more than usual, the,U.K. 65k. And not just deaths, the economy and gdp too, we are one f the worst. Too many apologists.

You also are quite prepared and ready to believe the worst about the UK such was your opposition to Brexit.

For example, Germany has over 30,000 excess deaths now sadly, far fewer than us but still a mortifyingly high number. t may be when all this has levelled out a bit more that things will become even more equal. Especially if the virus continues to rage and Europeans don't have enough vaccine. I desperately hope this is not the case as I have a lot of family in Germany.

 

[Hampster Gull]

You also are quite prepared and ready to believe the worst about the UK such was your opposition to Brexit.

Not true, you are mistaken. I live in this country because I choose to, not because I have to. I am pro UK, it’s a great place. I am criticising this government and it’s handling of this pandemic, that’s a very different thing. Many conflate this, if you criticise the government then you criticise the U.K., which is a bit narrow minded

 

[beorhthelm]

But on COVID, genuine question, is there any evidence we are complying at a lower level than any other European culture? The above would indicate against some, yes, say Germany and Sweden, but across the board?

higher covid incidence and death rate? other high rates in Belgium, also noted for non-compliance with rules.

its a bit tiresome seeing people use death rate as a political stick. its as if the 80k or 50k in other nations are acceptable, just our rate is reprehensible. policy differences and actions taken between nations have been minor, compliance and other societal factor have had far more effect.

 

[Hampster Gull]

higher covid incidence and death rate? other high rates in Belgium, also noted for non-compliance with rules.

I was more interested in data informing insight, hence my question, rather than subjective views

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Not true, you are mistaken. I live in this country because I choose to, not because I have to. I am pro UK, it’s a great place. I am criticising this government and it’s handling of this pandemic, that’s a very different thing. Many conflate this, if you criticise the government then you criticise the U.K., which is a bit narrow minded

Poorly chosen words on my part for which I apologise.

I meant the UK government.

Why are you stating facts about Germany and it's excess deaths that are quite hopelessly generous to them though?

The narrative seems to be directed towards unfavorable comparison.

 

[beorhthelm]

I was more interested in data informing insight, hence my question, rather than subjective views

its not subjective though. a transmissible virus needs people to be in contact to be transmitted. sure its indirect, i cant see a way to directly measure compliance across different nations, or regions within them. we can measure infection and look to social factors that might explain them.

 

[Hampster Gull]

its not subjective though. a transmissible virus needs people to be in contact to be transmitted. sure its indirect, i cant see a way to directly measure compliance across different nations, or regions within them. we can measure infection and look to social factors that might explain them.

My subjective point was the Belgium example, I was keen for data not subjective views on non compliance, that’ was the point. I agree with you, it can be inferred, that was my original point.

Found one academic paper, econometric, which seeks to evidence trust in governments does impact population mobility which impacts Covid growth rates. It aggregates European data and global data though, which is a shame

 

[Hampster Gull]

Poorly chosen words on my part for which I apologise.

I meant the UK government.

Why are you stating facts about Germany and it's excess deaths that are quite hopelessly generous to them though?

The narrative seems to be directed towards unfavorable comparison.

Do you think we are doing well on the death metric or gdp metric?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Do you think we are doing well on the death metric or gdp metric?

Don't be daft. I am realistic. I have stated many times here that we seem to have been badly governed in the crisis in many ways. But that doesn't alter that this discussion is about the vaccine where we have done brilliantly.

You are, in my opinion, heavily biased. For instance your post about the success of the vaccine is then followed by a rant about the 'Brexit government/cabinet'.

I get that you are upset about leaving but it's happened. I get why this thread was moved, it's a shame as it's very interesting to me, but as with most political threads it often comes down to Brexit comments which I think is a great pity. I'll bow out.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Me

Don't be daft. I am realistic. I have stated many times here that we seem to have been badly governed in the crisis in many ways. But that doesn't alter that this discussion is about the vaccine where we have done brilliantly.

You are, in my opinion, heavily biased. For instance your post about the success of the vaccine is then followed by a rant about the 'Brexit government/cabinet'.

I get that you are upset about leaving but it's happened. I get why this thread was moved, it's a shame as it's very interesting to me, but as with most political threads it often comes down to Brexit comments which I think is a great pity. I'll bow out.

You bow out with a tirade...so I’ll respond and call it a day

I have posted many times about how impressive the vaccine programme is. I have never caveated that.

The cabinet is not the most talented, and that’s for a reason.

I am not upset about leaving, genuinely

I explicitly stopped talking brexit on this thread about 24 hours before it got moved, several others keep pulling it back in.

 

[vegster]

Don't be daft. I am realistic. I have stated many times here that we seem to have been badly governed in the crisis in many ways. But that doesn't alter that this discussion is about the vaccine where we have done brilliantly.

You are, in my opinion, heavily biased. For instance your post about the success of the vaccine is then followed by a rant about the 'Brexit government/cabinet'.

I get that you are upset about leaving but it's happened. I get why this thread was moved, it's a shame as it's very interesting to me, but as with most political threads it often comes down to Brexit comments which I think is a great pity. I'll bow out.

Too many on here are/were desperate for the EU to mess up in one form or another to try to justify what has happened since June 16. I'm genuinely surprised that this wasn't thrown in the Bear Pit sooner. It shows what a terrible decision it was to have a referendum in the first place as almost every issue now will divide down the same fault line eventually and end in the same intractable way.

 

[Boroseagull]

It’s a shame this has found its way to the Bear Pit. I don’t think this story is finished.
Oh well, the damn has been breached by the usual suspects. Fill your boots
I’m not interested in Bear Pit threads so;

Likewise......it's always the usual suspects. Shame it was, and is, an important thread for serious discussion.

 

[peterward]

Too many on here are/were desperate for the EU to mess up in one form or another to try to justify what has happened since June 16. I'm genuinely surprised that this wasn't thrown in the Bear Pit sooner. It shows what a terrible decision it was to have a referendum in the first place as almost every issue now will divide down the same fault line eventually and end in the same intractable way.

What utter guff.