EU and AstraZeneca

[Boroseagull]

Fair enough, I was running with large countries. Taking the all the countries in the world, c220, we are 5th worst, behind Gibraltar, San Marino, Belgium and Slovenia. This is so sad, and tremendous we seemed to have nailed the vaccine part

You left Spain off the list. A true number of 80,000 deaths in a population of only 46 million.

Vaccines a distant dream here in Andalucia for us and our elder UK & Spanish friends. Indeed yesterday one of my 'birding buddies', Luis Alberto was hoping his 96 year old parents may, just may, receive a jab by the end of February/beginning of March. There is still not enough vaccines to protect front line health care workers, or the elderly in care homes. So we two at 75 have a long wait. But interestingly the talk is now of blaming either Spanish politicians for not going it alone, or the unaccountable EU.

So it looks like the Costa del Sol will be closed again this year unless a miracle happens.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking/expecting sympathy, I'm just explaining the position faced here, and the fact nobody wants to hold their hands up to an almighty cock-up. And this from someone who voted remain!

 

[Hampster Gull]

Problem with that is using data that fits your argument as a fact when it has caveats like dismissing the very country that the European Commission is based in. Most political points made are done so with very little due diligence.

We are better than Gibraltar and San Marino (combined about half the size of Lewes), Slovenia and Belgium (which isn’t the same as the EU). Good spot. The point is undiminished, a sub par cabinet rewarded predominantly for another purpose who have demonstrably failed this country at all bar vaccines.

 

[Hampster Gull]

You left Spain off the list. A true number of 80,000 deaths in a population of only 46 million.

Vaccines a distant dream here in Andalucia for us and our elder UK & Spanish friends. Indeed yesterday one of my 'birding buddies', Luis Alberto was hoping his 96 year old parents may, just may, receive a jab by the end of February/beginning of March. There is still not enough vaccines to protect front line health care workers, or the elderly in care homes. So we two at 75 have a long wait. But interestingly the talk is now of blaming either Spanish politicians for not going it alone, or the unaccountable EU.

So it looks like the Costa del Sol will be closed again this year unless a miracle happens.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking/expecting sympathy, I'm just explaining the position faced here, and the fact nobody wants to hold their hands up to an almighty cock-up. And this from someone who voted remain!

Spain have sadly lost around 1,250 per million of their population, the U.K. 1,500. Vaccines are needed by all, and I have great Catalan friends who talk to me about their experiences, which as you say haven’t been good

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Spain have sadly lost around 1,250 per million of their population, the U.K. 1,500. Vaccines are needed by all, and I have great Catalan friends who talk to me about their experiences, which as you say haven’t been good

Your maths doesn’t work if it’s 80000 deaths/46 million population. I think Spain needs an effective vaccine strategy as much as we do

 

[Hampster Gull]

Your maths doesn’t work if it’s 80000 deaths/46 million population. I think Spain needs an effective vaccine strategy as much as we do

58k is the number being reported. And every country does, as even those that have nailed it, New Zealand etc, can never go back to normality without it

 

[Jim in the West]

58k is the number being reported. And every country does, as even those that have nailed it, New Zealand etc, can never go back to normality without it

With Spain you probably have to look at the Excess Deaths figure, as they have admitted probs with data recording in the early weeks of the pandemic. On that measure, they have performed worse than us.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

58k is the number being reported. And every country does, as even those that have nailed it, New Zealand etc, can never go back to normality without it

Not difficult to find out that the official figure is disputed.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL8N2IQ308

Spain's March-May COVID-19 death toll nearly 70% above official count - stats institute

Anyway, you brought it up. I’m not sure treating virus death figures as a competition is particularly healthy and it is a bit of a deflection from the debate around vaccine strategy.

 

[Boroseagull]

Not difficult to find out that the official figure is disputed.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL8N2IQ308

Spain's March-May COVID-19 death toll nearly 70% above official count - stats institute

Anyway, you brought it up. I’m not sure treating virus death figures as a competition is particularly healthy and it is a bit of a deflection from the debate around vaccine strategy

As I reported much earlier in the thread, El Pais on Wednesday reported the true number of COVID related deaths to be nearer 80,000.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

We are better than Gibraltar and San Marino (combined about half the size of Lewes), Slovenia and Belgium (which isn’t the same as the EU). Good spot. The point is undiminished, a sub par cabinet rewarded predominantly for another purpose who have demonstrably failed this country at all bar vaccines.

It's not a good spot. I only had to delve a little into what evidence is available. I try not to make sweeping political statements, as I'm a moderate thinking person who mainly disbelieves most sides therefore I attempt to get various views from differing agencies to base my opinion. Taking the death totals as an example. Many times it appears covid is used when it may be a secondary condition of a terminally ill person yet is recorded as a covid death. Parts of the UK ie Wales have recorded deaths in a slightly different ways. Other countries have obviously either hidden their death rate or used a differing method. Much should be made of the excess deaths as this shows illnesses not treated (cancer) and those not recorded but should have been related to covid. Certain illnesses such as flu one would expect to be lower deaths this year. Therefore the rise in excess deaths is probably more serious and an overall indicator.

Not making a political point as I believe irrelevant of being Labour or Tory (or any other) most are in it for the betterment of the country and all make good and bad decisions. The opposition exists to check the facts and show a conciseness to the path the government is taking not to continually take the opposite side. Sometimes a consensus is a wonderful thing.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

We are better than Gibraltar and San Marino (combined about half the size of Lewes), Slovenia and Belgium (which isn’t the same as the EU). Good spot. The point is undiminished, a sub par cabinet rewarded predominantly for another purpose who have demonstrably failed this country at all bar vaccines.

Hampster Gull, it's a dishonest statistic. Those who use it are either daft or dishonest. Reasons? 1. Data cannot properly be compared unless it is collected in the same way. It is not. 2. UK puts in all deaths "with" covid, not "of" covid. Certainly there was a region in the south of France last year were doing the reverse. Whether that has changed I don't know but it goes to show. 3. All data must be considered in the light of population density, economies ect. As an aside a Chinese friend explained they are not vaccinating the entire population. But they have control of the population, borders and a population used to things such as SARS. Don't be either daft or dishonest and look a bit carefully at these things.

 

[atomised]

58k is the number being reported. And every country does, as even those that have nailed it, New Zealand etc, can never go back to normality without it

A friend of mine had to take a relative back to New Zealand just prior to Christmas and has been over there since dealing with stuff. Heard from them today and there are concerns over there currently that the south African variant is taking hold

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Hampster Gull, it's a dishonest statistic. Those who use it are either daft or dishonest. Reasons? 1. Data cannot properly be compared unless it is collected in the same way. It is not. 2. UK puts in all deaths "with" covid, not "of" covid. Certainly there was a region in the south of France last year were doing the reverse. Whether that has changed I don't know but it goes to show. 3. All data must be considered in the light of population density, economies ect. As an aside a Chinese friend explained they are not vaccinating the entire population. But they have control of the population, borders and a population used to things such as SARS. Don't be either daft or dishonest and look a bit carefully at these things.

All good apart from ect it's etc.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Have to say, overall this thread has made a refreshing change from the usual entrenched positions surrounding the EU. Lots of honesty and understandable disappointment from many who would have preferred we stay in the EU. Light years away from the Brexit thread bunker mentality .... well done (nearly) everyone!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

All good apart from ect it's etc.

That never usually bothers you

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

That never usually bothers you

 

[Hampster Gull]

It's not a good spot. I only had to delve a little into what evidence is available. I try not to make sweeping political statements, as I'm a moderate thinking person who mainly disbelieves most sides therefore I attempt to get various views from differing agencies to base my opinion. Taking the death totals as an example. Many times it appears covid is used when it may be a secondary condition of a terminally ill person yet is recorded as a covid death. Parts of the UK ie Wales have recorded deaths in a slightly different ways. Other countries have obviously either hidden their death rate or used a differing method. Much should be made of the excess deaths as this shows illnesses not treated (cancer) and those not recorded but should have been related to covid. Certain illnesses such as flu one would expect to be lower deaths this year. Therefore the rise in excess deaths is probably more serious and an overall indicator.

Not making a political point as I believe irrelevant of being Labour or Tory (or any other) most are in it for the betterment of the country and all make good and bad decisions. The opposition exists to check the facts and show a conciseness to the path the government is taking not to continually take the opposite side. Sometimes a consensus is a wonderful thing.

I know, I was being ironic. I wasn’t making a political statement either, i affiliate myself with no party. And yes, excess deaths is a really good indicator, although somewhat limited when comparing globally as not all countries have the recorded data and results vary depending what start point you take (1st death, 50th, 200th etc). But another good lens. And sadly again we are not good.

 

[Baker lite]

Have to say, overall this thread has made a refreshing change from the usual entrenched positions surrounding the EU. Lots of honesty and understandable disappointment from many who would have preferred we stay in the EU. Light years away from the Brexit thread bunker mentality .... well done (nearly) everyone!

This.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Hampster Gull]

A friend of mine had to take a relative back to New Zealand just prior to Christmas and has been over there since dealing with stuff. Heard from them today and there are concerns over there currently that the south African variant is taking hold

I am a kiwi, as well as British, they are rightly paranoid about COVID

 

[Hampster Gull]

Hampster Gull, it's a dishonest statistic. Those who use it are either daft or dishonest. Reasons? 1. Data cannot properly be compared unless it is collected in the same way. It is not. 2. UK puts in all deaths "with" covid, not "of" covid. Certainly there was a region in the south of France last year were doing the reverse. Whether that has changed I don't know but it goes to show. 3. All data must be considered in the light of population density, economies ect. As an aside a Chinese friend explained they are not vaccinating the entire population. But they have control of the population, borders and a population used to things such as SARS. Don't be either daft or dishonest and look a bit carefully at these things.

slightly superior and passive aggressive post, albeit with some good points. You’ll fit in well with many on here

 

[larus]

VDL is under huge pressure now, and being exposed for what she is - a second rate politician who fell into the top job. The decision to invoke that article in the Brexit agreement in regards of NI has totally undermined the EU and ruined any remaining illusion of them being a ‘rules based’ organisation.

I remember [MENTION=21658]nick[/MENTION]031 gushing in praise for her and Macron (saying how good she was and how he wished we had someone like Macron). Well, Macron is despised in France with very low approval ratings and VDL is ridiculed by the German press and stories of her incompetence as defence secretary have been aired again.

This simple fact is - politicians are human, make mistakes, and, most importantly, don’t implement their policies as this gets done by the civil servants. Politics (and political debate) would be much healthier and constructive if adult debate could take place, rather than the point scoring.