kevtherev
Well-known member
They both got entries in the Eclipse and the Sussex, so we will see...Might have to get myself along to Goodwood if that comes off.
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Epson Derby...
- Thread starter desprateseagull
- Start date
They both got entries in the Eclipse and the Sussex, so we will see...Might have to get myself along to Goodwood if that comes off.
keithbeaky
New member
- Dec 26, 2011
- 472
Obviously you cant be serious?
Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
Just took EVS for Camelot to win next years Triumph Hurdle
kevtherev
Well-known member
About the times?..Check the records. I'm not saying Frankel isn't a great racehorse, he clearly is. You can only beat what your up against and he has beaten them all well. Quite how good what he has beaten is, is very questionable. The victory in the St James Palace was far from impressive and Canford Cliffs was all over the place and clearly wrong at Goodwood. I'm not knocking Frankel, just think he has had a quite comfortable time of it.
Mtoto
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2003
- 1,858
Could be argued that the SJP was one of the more impressive wins of Frankel's career given that his jockey seemed to be trying to break the world four-furlong record in the middle of the race. Shocking ride and tactics but Frankel somehow rose above it. Anything but a freak of a horse would have been beaten.
Mackenzie
Old Brightonian
I'd love to see a Frankel V Black Caviar race.
keithbeaky
New member
- Dec 26, 2011
- 472
Who holds the record for the Guineas? He was obviously the best 3yo miler ever.
I meant you couldn't be serious about your statement, but clearly you were. Its lucky for me there are people out there like you. Canford Cliffs was retired because he would never beat Frankel.
a
Exactly. Can ford Cliffs ran as well in the Sussex as he had the year before when he won it. This time though he met possibly the best miler in history. To get with 5 or 6 lengths of him looks pretty good now I reckon.
kevtherev
Well-known member
Mister Bailey's hold the record for the Guineas..Never have I said Frankel is not a great horse, i've have said there hasn't been much around for him to beat. You clearly disagree, the acid test will be when he steps up to 10 furlongs. I'm guessing you work in the industry, where as I am just your average mug punter. But then I don't claim to be anything else, as my record in the naps table clearly shows. I did notice you are not that far above me though, or anywhere near the top come to that. Maybe you don't know as much as you like to think and just have an opinion like the rest of us?
keithbeaky
New member
- Dec 26, 2011
- 472
You haven't made much sense. You say Workforce holds the record for Epsom over 1m4 but then flopped in the King George, which there were reasons for, and then was retired after an ok 4yo campaign. He was a very good horse who had problems. I dont get why you have quoted course records? Do you mean he is the greatest horse to have ever run over 1m4 at Epsom but then wasn't very good elsewhere? Did you get that there are so many factors when it come to course records? The ground was fast that day, the pace of the race was very quick and he also had the perfect position and ride from Moore. It actually wasn't a very good Derby in terms of the horses he beat.
You then say Frankel is slower than x amount of previous winners of the Guineas. Mister Baileys was a very, very poor Guineas winner, make no mistake. Frankel would win any Guineas ran in the last twenty years. I see that Dancing Brave won in a time of 1:40, which is very slow if you simply just look at the times. I would also like to see where you have read the other jockeys gave him too much of a lead and couldn't reel him back in. I can believe they thought he was the pacemaker, but there is no way they gave him an easy lead. EVERY horse was flat to the boards after about 2f. It was the most brilliant and powerful performance in a Guineas I've ever seen, since early 90's, and people's opinion which I respect say it was for them too and they are in their 60's.
Your original question was why Frankel hadn't raced over 1m2/10f. I did try to explain the reasons why. He wasn't easy to settle in his races last season, as basically he didn't know how to control or harness his pure power and strength. Thats also why he ran as he did in the Guineas. Cecil and Queally thought there was no point fighting him and just letting him get on with it was the far better option, as proved the case. If you fight a horse to settle it will often cause them to use a lot of their energy up without even racing. They are bursting to go quicker whilst at the same time you are trying to reign them in and make them go slower, its very counter productive. In the St James' Palace Queally went a bit mad and decided to sprint for home way too soon and I only think Frankel idled at the finish as well so the victory was far easier than it visually appeared. On his final start in the QEII Frankel settled better and won so easily from a horse with proven G1 form. He beat that same horse last month in the Lockinge where he looked stronger both physically and mentally, settled superbly and was not stopping at the line. Also in last years Sussex it took Queally another 2f after the finish to pull him up, which if you dont know is 10f in total.
So Frankel is stronger, has grown up mentally, has been taught how to use his immense power to the greatest effect and was always going to run over 1m2 this season. That was obvious from this time last year. Although I rate Camelot, he is definitely a very classy horse, he really is a 1m4 horse. If the two meet over 10f there really is no contest. I'll take as much Evens Frankel in a match as you want to lay. Also entries for G1's are made months in advance, otherwise you have to pay huge late entry fees. I doubt either will run in the Eclipse next month.
As for the NAPS table I think I have a few more forfeits than you. But if you'd like to lay my bets you are more than welcome............
Lyndhurst 14
Well-known member
- Jan 16, 2008
- 5,238
Slightly OT – I’ll be going to Belmont Park this Saturday to see if I’ll Have Another can win the Triple Crown. Last attempt was Big Brown 4 years ago and last TC winner was Affirmed in 1978 so a lot of punters will be hoping for a winner after 34 years. The NYRA really need to spend some money at Belmont Park as it’s starting to look its age. I really miss being able to go to Ascot or Epsom, but Belmont is the next best thing and the Belmont Stakes is always a good atmosphere