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[Football] England Vs Ireland
- Thread starter Hendrax
- Start date
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
There are a few -
Charlie Hurley - a towering centre-half in the 1950s-1960s - named 'Black Cat's player of the century' by Sunderland fans
Johnny Carey - Full-back for Man Utd in 1930s-1950s
Davy Walsh - striker for WBA and Aston Villa in the 1940s-1950s
Noel Cantwell - full-back for West Ham and Man Utd 1950s-1960s
Tony Dunne - a stalwart for Man Utd when they won the European Cup (and for many seasons afterwards)
John Dempsey - centre-half for the Chelsea team that won the FA Cup in 1970 and the Cups Winners Cup in 1971
Tommy Eglington - Everton winger in the 1940s-1950s
Peter Farrell - midfielder in the same Everton team
Arthur Fitzsimons - played in the same Middlesbrough team as Brian Clough and Wilf Mannion.
Joe Haverty - winger who played for Arsenal, Blackburn and Millwall in the 1950s-1960s
Con Martin - Leeds and Aston Villa - played every position on the pitch, including nearly a full season in goal for Villa
Kevin Moran - won 2 All-Ireland titles at gaelic football before going on to play for Man Utd for 10 years in the 1980s-1990s
Frank O'Farrell - played for West Ham and Preston from the late 1940s - early 1960s. Became manager of Man Utd after Matt Busby following a successful stint with Leicester - there is a fascinating documentary about O'Farrell's time as Man Utd manager.
Alf Ringstead - scored over 100 goals in about 250 games for Sheffield Utd as a winger in the 1950s
Frank Stapleton - stylish striker for Arsenal and Man Utd (and a host of other teams) in the 1970s-1990s (including a couple of games for Brighton just before he retired)
Liam Tuohy - incredibly stylish winger who played most of his career in Ireland because he wanted his family to grow up here - had a couple of seasons with Newcastle. Was also potentially a top manager - he managed Ireland for a short period - but again he didn't want to uproot his family.
Liam Whelan - striker with Man Utd - one of the Busby Babes killed at 22 years of age in the Munich air-crash - could potentially have gone on to be the greatest Irish player of all time
Steve Heighway - legendary Liverpool winger in the 1970s
Denis Irwin - one of the best full-backs of the PL era
Incidentally - when Ireland became the first foreign team to beat England on English soil in 1949, Johnny Carey, Davy Walsh, Con Martin and Peter Farrell were in the team (Tommy Eglington would have played but he was injured). The England team had the likes of Billy Wright, Wilf Mannion and Tom Finney.
Paul McGrath was potentially one of the world's greatest ever - unfortunately a horrific childhood and on-going battles with alcoholism and depression robbed him of the potential of being regarded in the same class as Pele, Maradona, Messi etc. As a child he lived (survived) in the horrific foster care institutions in Ireland where he was beaten on an almost daily basis. When he left institutional care at 18 he suffered several mental breakdowns, at one point his mother was told he would never be able to walk again. He attempted suicide on several occasions and became a full-blown alcoholic in the company of Norman Whiteside and Bryan Robson at Man Utd. By the time he joined Aston Villa he was suffering bouts of depression, continuing alcoholism - his knees were shot (8 surgeries) and he was unable to train. He could only get a contract on a pay-per-play basis. Ferguson was dismissive of McGrath but McGrath credits Graham Taylor with saving his football career. Jack Charlton was another person who McGrath responded to. Despite all his mental and physical problems, McGrath's anticipation and ability to read the game made him one of the best centre-backs/midfielders in soccer at the time. He was Villa's player of the season for 4 of the 8 years he was there and was voted PFA player of the year in 1993. At the 1990 World Cup Ireland beat Italy 1-0 in their opening game - McGrath put on a master-class on the pitch - to this day it is one of the best individual performances I have ever seen from a footballer. This was despite playing with pain-killing injections in his knees and with a serious and very painful, shoulder problem that was later diagnosed as a virus infection.
Ronnie Whelan was the consummate professional - made everything seem so simple and was the captain and lynch-pin of the oh-so-successful Liverpool team of the 1980s.
Best of the lot was Johnny Giles - his instincts and anticipation were incredible - he was a natural and was one of the best passers of the ball - ever - and he could score and tackle (sometimes without mercy) with the best of them. Leeds made a monumental blunder by appointing Brian Clough over Giles as manager when Revie took the England job. Leeds would have been a power-house of a team in the second half of the 1970s if Giles had been manager (there is also a fascinating documentary about Johnny Giles' career that is well worth a watch).
(and bn9 - Paul McShane would be embarrassed to be mentioned in the same breath as the others - genuine guy - met him a couple of times - but very much a journeyman)
If anyone is interested - this is the Frank O'Farrell documentary
DavePage
Well-known member
If I know the answers I think you can safely say you've taken 'cool ignorance' into the realm of just ignorant, which is never a good look.
Only mentioned because of the season he played for Albion, and obviously for that goal against you know who.
It's a dig because you came onto an England thread during an England match to ask about England players just so you could tell everyone how little you care about England and imply we're rubbish because we're using players YOU'VE never heard of.
You could have googled what I told you in 2 minutes. One of those players hit the bar against us
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,774
Almost evil of you both not to mention the very underrated Robbie Keane! If he made a couple of wiser career moves, like not moving to Inter, not moving to the self-destructing Leeds and not staying that long over at Spurs, I think he would have been remembered as a very high quality striker.
Weststander
Well-known member
Thank you, genuinely interesting. Although I can only remember the tail end of the Giles playing career, that’s always been my take too ... a gifted midfield general who ran countless games, great passer and also an enforcer.
Regarding McGrath’s childhood, I didn’t know about that and it’s frank of you to mention it. Sometimes Irish folk in my experience whilst not condoning the priests/nuns/staff in those old institutions, feel disloyal to the state if they criticise it to the outside world. Possibly due to ingrained thoughts from the all pervasive RC church up until the 80’s. Others such as Bob Geldof have written about this.
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swindonseagull
Well-known member
It's a dig because you came onto an England thread during an England match to ask about England players just so you could tell everyone how little you care about England and imply we're rubbish because we're using players YOU'VE never heard of.
You could have googled what I told you in 2 minutes. One of those players hit the bar against us
Ok Mr know all I will bite.
Nowhere did I say England were rubbish because they pick players I have never heard of.!
I know you are trying to get likes from your little gang of NSC 24/7 buddies so good for you.
The reason I came in the England thread to ask the question is ‘ it’s the most logical place to ask it’ or do you think I should have asked in a thread about Locadia
So the other kid hit the bar playing against us at the Amex? As I was not there I’m afraid I didn’t remember that ( or him).
swindonseagull
Well-known member
Standard reply from you getting your nose into every post.
Congratulations you will soon be the highest poster on NSC
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,774
Danny Wilson Said
New member
Yes, he did okay I thought. Always looking to take the team forward, got himself into trouble once then fought his way out of it. Promising.
Sounds like Alzate.
He wants the ball and isn't afraid of forward runs. I like both those things.
Badger Boy
Mr Badger
- Jan 28, 2016
- 3,658
Sorry pal, I completely agree with you. Robbie Keane was a fantastic striker in his prime, and a real leader on the pitch. Brilliant player.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Giles is open about being an enforcer - he doesn't glorify it but outlined why he ended up playing in that way. In the early 1960s he was playing for Man Utd against Birmingham when Birmingham's enforcer, Johnny Watts, scissor-tackled him, destroying the ligaments in his ankle and breaking a bone in his leg. The tackle nearly ended Giles' career. After being out for months and subsequently transferring to Leeds (Busby said it was the biggest mistake he ever made) Giles was the victim of a similar tackle from Eddie McCreadie of Chelsea - from then on Giles was going to get his tackle in first and you knew if you went near him, he would destroy you. As a small, gifted passer of the ball, Giles had to be as tough as nails to survive. These days Giles is utterly condemning of anyone who tries to hurt another player - and Roy Keane was particularly singled out for his tackle on Haaland.
Geldof is a poser - a guy from a privileged background who went to the most expensive private school in Ireland - he knows nothing about the RC hierarchy and life under the hierarchy and the state and his musings are nothing more than the pangs of a liberal conscience. Read Paul McGrath's 'Back from the Brink' to get a real sense of what life was like.
I disagree with your assessment of the attitude of Irish people towards the RC hierarchy and the state. I come from a poor working class background in a small rural town in Ireland and grew up and went to school in the 1960s and 1970s. The primary school was run by the Nuns and the secondary school by the Christian Brothers - both of them sadistic ********. Nobody who was in school with me had any reverence for the RC hierarchy or the state. When these people weren't sadists they were paedophiles and we knew who were the sadists and who were the paedophiles. In primary school we had to rote learn the RC 'catechism' - the parish priest would come into the school to quiz us - when we got a question wrong the Nun would batter us (and we would get battered again later for embarrassing the Nun) - we eventually realised as 7 year-old kids, that they would keep asking us questions until we got one wrong - so we stopped trying to learn and just took the beatings. In secondary school we kept away from the paedophiles and displayed defiance to the sadists. The paedophiles could suss out the vulnerable kids - if you had an older sibling (in my case a cousin) then you were somewhat protected from the paedophiles - the 17/18 year olds would gang together and even beat up the paedophile priest/brother if he went near a sibling. Those without older family members in the school and who were vulnerable were the ones who were targeted. With the sadists we just stood up to them and defiantly dared them to hit us. I was a quiet kid, didn't cause any trouble in school but got hit at least once a day, every day. I was luck with my group of friends - there were four of us but one of the lads was 6ft 4in when he was 14 and built like a tank. He was a gentle giant but the Brothers were afraid of him so they tended to keep away from us. When they wanted to hit him they would stand on a desk to get above him so they could get a good swing with whatever weapon they were using. He never hit back but would look at them and they would back off. By the time we were finishing school some of the students had enough. Eight kids from my year were expelled in our final year for attacking different Brothers. I learned nothing in school - and was always told I would be a waster and never amount to anything (I wasn't the only one - the Brothers were mostly from privileged backgrounds and had contempt for working class kids). I often ducked out of school in my last two years - I loved reading and would usually end up in the local library - the librarian would call the cops and they would threaten my father for not making me go to school. My father knew that he couldn't make me go to school and didn't want me to be part of that environment anyway. I was self-taught for all my school exams and ultimately ended up with a PhD, a string of academic publications and I work as a teacher.
There was little or no reverence for the state of the RC hierarchy among anyone I knew growing up. The RC hierarchy, the cops, the judiciary and the state worked hand-in-hand in maintaining hegemonic control. If a kid made a complaint about a paedophile priest or Christian Brother, the family would be ridiculed and, more often than not, the kid would be dumped into an industrial school / reformatory - run by the same Christian Brothers. It suited the state to allow the RC hierarchy to have control over these institutions and the education system (and the health system) as it absolved the state from responsibility, ensured that the RC hierarchy had a vested interest in maintaining the political establishment and made it more difficult for ordinary people to complain about these institutions and the people who ran them. I remember one lay teacher in a convent primary school (not the school I attended) who was a known paedophile. As kids one of our pastimes was to rob apples from apple trees in peoples back gardens. Our parents knew what we were doing - but we were told that whichever garden we went into we were not to go into that particular garden of the house of this paedophile. Nobody dared to complain about what was happening in this RC run convent school - not out of reverence but out of fear. I found out later of one mother who made a complaint about this teacher molesting her daughter - she was arrested by the cops, and a local judge ordered her incarceration in a psychiatric institution (where she spent the rest of her life). What happened the teacher? - they made him principal of the school and gave him a nice quiet office where he spent another 40 years abusing children. It wasn't until he was long retired that he was charged with molesting dozens of children but the reality was that his victims could well have run into the hundreds - he pleaded not guilty and was given a six year sentence when he was convicted - the judge was lenient because he was in his 80's by the time he was brought to court. People were terrified of raising complaints - you would be harassed by the cops, you could be institutionalised by the judiciary, their kids were brutalised by the sadists in the schools - if you tried to pull your kids out of the school the cops would bring parents to court, the priests would refuse admission to the child to a different school. Some families moved but the abuse was widespread and you didn't know if you were sending your vulnerable kid into another dangerous situation. There were more than a few families who emigrated to Britain, not because of poverty and unemployment, but to keep their kids safe - but that is a difficult thing to do if you don't have any money, have vulnerable elderly parents/grandparents etc.
The sadistic beating of children in school was widespread - it was in part a mechanism for control, to brutalise people that you want to keep in line. The paedophelia was not as widespread - but to demonstrate that it was a serious problem - more than 1,300 members of the religious orders in Ireland were reported as paedophiles since 1975 (and you can be sure that there were a lot more that weren't reported for a variety of reasons). I was fortunate that I was never subjected to such abuse - but I know of at least 3 paedophiles who were in schools I attended, and 2 more outside of the school environment. I also know at least half a dozen people who were victims of abuse - all of whom ended up as alcoholics, with drug addiction, one committed suicide and two ended up in prison - and there are probably other people that I knew who were victims and nobody has ever been aware of. So the lack of criticism among some Irish people is not out of reverence to the RC hierarchy or out of loyalty to the Irish state - it was out of fear. Sometimes people who emigrate look back at their home country through rose-tinted glasses. Fortunately that is no longer the case - you will find very few people now who have nothing but distain for the religious orders (who continue to hide paedophiles and to hide their financial resources to avoid civil suits against them) or for the Irish state. The Irish state continues to protect the RC hierarchy - indemnifying them against civil lawsuits - continuing to allow them control 98% of the schools in the country. Fortunately, most (though not all) of the hospitals either have much reduced or removed religious control - although many private hospitals in Ireland are still under religious control - we don't have an NHS. The biggest owner of private hospitals in the Irish state is the Bon Secour Order of nuns - the same order responsible for dumping the dead bodies of more than 800 babies into a septic tank at a Mother and Baby Home in Tuam, Co. Galway and sold more than 1,000 babies from the same Home between 1925-1961 in private adoptions after the babies were forcibly removed from their mothers.
Despite what Irish nationalists may attempt to portray - post-independent Ireland was an ultra-reactionary, religious state, dominated by the ultra-conservative business class and the RC hierarchy, with a dark underbelly that victimised children and vilified those who dared to raise their heads above the parapet - fortunately, to paraphrase WB Yeats, that Ireland 'is dead and gone, It’s with O’Leary in the grave'.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Robbie Keane is a spoofer - a money-chaser who prioritised his image over his talent and his style over substance. Two-thirds of the goals he scored for Ireland were against the 'minnows' - 5 against Gibraltar - 5 against the Faroe Islands - 3 against San Marino - 4 against Georgia - and more against the likes of Malta, Cyprus, Latvia, Estonia, North Macedonia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Andorra, Algeria, Kazakhstan, Oman etc. In 50 games against the 'big' countries he managed all of 8 goals. He did similar things against club sides. He has a bad reputation among the grassroots of Irish football - when the grassroots were being deprived of much needed funds during the recent financial scandal in the FAI - Keane threatened to sue the FAI and walked away with a handshake of €250,000 after Kenny replaced Mick McCarthy.
Now he is trying to pretend that he will be a manager - he doesn't have the brains for it. He'll end up as a pundit and people will see how much of a spoofer he is.
Cowfold Seagull
Fan of the 17 bus
Yes he is, and he should be a shoe in in England's midfield.
Wardy's twin
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2014
- 8,870
well hopefully Southgate will be gone by then.
You have to admit that watching England is painful at times and the whole set up has a negative feel for it from the top down in the FA.