[News] Energy bills to top £4200 at the start of next year

[Wardy's twin]

In the days of the B**x*t debate we were told we would get back our borders and ability to make all the decisions about how we do things and would benefit from have this new found control. I argued how that would happen when we are dependent on the global economy. Here is a prime example of what I meant and before anyone says anything I agree that same problem is hitting the EU countries BUT the point is we have not gained any independence.

The logical conclusion of BREXIT and gaining control is to ensure we control the basic functions of our economy - energy, water, food and travel, of course this won't happen all the time government supporters are making money out of these functions to the detriment of everyone else.

 

[TomandJerry]

Half of UK households are facing fuel poverty this winter unless the government does more to help with energy bills, EDF has warned.

Philippe Commaret, a senior executive at EDF Energy UK, said without further support, people face a "catastrophic winter".

Energy bills are predicted to be nearly three times higher than last winter.

A household is considered to be in fuel poverty if it has to spend 10% or more of its disposable income on energy.

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[TomandJerry]

Oh dear

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[pb21]

this could be a problem.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/europe-gas-jumps-supply-fears-062207985.html

https://twitter.com/Schuldensuehner/status/1561697025749557248/photo/1

Yep, that's not very encouraging is it. Things could get very difficult in the next year or so.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

In the days of the B**x*t debate we were told we would get back our borders and ability to make all the decisions about how we do things and would benefit from have this new found control. I argued how that would happen when we are dependent on the global economy. Here is a prime example of what I meant and before anyone says anything I agree that same problem is hitting the EU countries BUT the point is we have not gained any independence.

The logical conclusion of BREXIT and gaining control is to ensure we control the basic functions of our economy - energy, water, food and travel, of course this won't happen all the time government supporters are making money out of these functions to the detriment of everyone else.

Sorry, I disagree. I’m not getting into a Brexit debate but it’s purpose was never wholesale nationalization of the economy. People can get that from a general election. These were private assets before 2016 and are private assets now. The problem we have goes right back to the ‘80s and is nothing to do with Brexit. Our energy will always be priced on global markets but it’s hedging would have been better done on long term fixed prices which hadn’t been happening because of privatization not Brexit. There are plenty of countries that trade in global markets and are not members of the EU. We are now one of them.
Incidentally, not relevant to your point but there are quite a few influential figures in the EU suggesting Norway should lower its gas prices in the name of Western solidarity. This despite the EU decision several years ago to tear up its fixed price contracts for their gas after having them ruled monopolistic. Short term thinking is pretty common everywhere.

 

[Weststander]

In the days of the B**x*t debate we were told we would get back our borders and ability to make all the decisions about how we do things and would benefit from have this new found control. I argued how that would happen when we are dependent on the global economy. Here is a prime example of what I meant and before anyone says anything I agree that same problem is hitting the EU countries BUT the point is we have not gained any independence.

The logical conclusion of BREXIT and gaining control is to ensure we control the basic functions of our economy - energy, water, food and travel, of course this won't happen all the time government supporters are making money out of these functions to the detriment of everyone else.

(As a Remainer) can I just say that our government could make the right decisions just now, it has the tools, but at a colossal financial cost, to save households and businesses on fuel costs.

But it'll probably take a Starmer government to it.

This is wider than the red herring here of Brexit. Putin is trying to screw western Europe as punishment for backing Ukraine, this is accepted everywhere including the BBC and non-right wing papers. Europe one way or another is suffering, except Norway (vast carbon reserves for a tiny population) and France (a huge nuclear power industry, when the rest of Europe and the UK deemed it evil).

I think the UK should nationalise the entire sector and this includes green energy businesses, for energy security and to eliminate quirks such as green energy producers of electricity currently making £b's in profits (because electricity prices here are wrongly pegged to global gas prices).

 

[Weststander]

Sorry, I disagree. I’m not getting into a Brexit debate but it’s purpose was never wholesale nationalization of the economy. People can get that from a general election. These were private assets before 2016 and are private assets now. The problem we have goes right back to the ‘80s and is nothing to do with Brexit. Our energy will always be priced on global markets but it’s hedging would have been better done on long term fixed prices which hadn’t been happening because of privatization not Brexit. There are plenty of countries that trade in global markets and are not members of the EU. We are now one of them.
Incidentally, not relevant to your point but there are quite a few influential figures in the EU suggesting Norway should lower its gas prices in the name of Western solidarity. This despite the EU decision several years ago to tear up its fixed price contracts for their gas after having them ruled monopolistic. Short term thinking is pretty common everywhere.

One revision to that - green source electricity prices in the UK just now should be a fraction of their current levels.

Covered in the Telegraph at the weekend.

 

[pb21]

Sorry, I disagree. I’m not getting into a Brexit debate but it’s purpose was never wholesale nationalization of the economy. People can get that from a general election. These were private assets before 2016 and are private assets now. The problem we have goes right back to the ‘80s and is nothing to do with Brexit. Our energy will always be priced on global markets but it’s hedging would have been better done on long term fixed prices which hadn’t been happening because of privatization not Brexit. There are plenty of countries that trade in global markets and are not members of the EU. We are now one of them.

Well now we have left the EU we can remove VAT, this can be readily offset as we don't make any contribution to be in the EU. We were constantly told our bills would be lower, both power and food, outside the EU. Obviously bills are going up everywhere, but they're not going up less in the UK.

Also, we have left the EU Internal Energy Market, which probably has had a negative affect on prices and more so on energy stability, as this will affect our interconnectors.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

One revision to that - green source electricity prices in the UK just now should be a fraction of their current levels.

Covered in the Telegraph at the weekend.

I’ll look it up, thanks.

 

[Wardy's twin]

(As a Remainer) can I just say that our government could make the right decisions just now, it has the tools, but at a colossal financial cost, to save households and businesses on fuel costs.

But it'll probably take a Starmer government to it.

This is wider than the red herring here of Brexit. Putin is trying to screw western Europe as punishment for backing Ukraine, this is accepted everywhere including the BBC and non-right wing papers. Europe one way or another is suffering, except Norway (vast carbon reserves for a tiny population) and France (a huge nuclear power industry, when the rest of Europe and the UK deemed it evil).

I think the UK should nationalise the entire sector and this includes green energy businesses, for energy security and to eliminate quirks such as green energy producers of electricity currently making £b's in profits (because electricity prices here are wrongly pegged to global gas prices).

I don't think it is a red herring in so much that brexit was sold on gaining back 'independence' when economically we cannot live in isolation and certainly can't do that with out controlling key functions. We are where we are so now we need to take this properly forward and having energy independence is important.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Well now we have left the EU we can remove VAT, this can be readily offset as we don't make any contribution to be in the EU. We were constantly told our bills would be lower, both power and food, outside the EU. Obviously bills are going up everywhere, but they're not going up less in the UK.

Also, we have left the EU Internal Energy Market, which probably has had a negative affect on prices.

Yes, we can certainly remove VAT so we need to vote for a Government that will do so.
I think the EU internal energy market is more a regulatory framework than a pricing mechanism. There are different prices in different EU countries.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I don't think it is a red herring in so much that brexit was sold on gaining back 'independence' when economically we cannot live in isolation and certainly can't do that with out controlling key functions. We are where we are so now we need to take this properly forward and having energy independence is important.

Gaining independence did not mean decoupling from global markets. Economic isolation has never been the aim of any independence movement ever. It certainly isn’t for the SNP for example.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I agree with [MENTION=34242]Neville's Breakfast[/MENTION] that Brexit hasn't had a significant impact on energy prices

It's the raging inflation and plummeting GDP that Brexit has majorly fuelled, exactly as predicted

 

[Wardy's twin]

Sorry, I disagree. I’m not getting into a Brexit debate but it’s purpose was never wholesale nationalization of the economy. People can get that from a general election. These were private assets before 2016 and are private assets now. The problem we have goes right back to the ‘80s and is nothing to do with Brexit. Our energy will always be priced on global markets but it’s hedging would have been better done on long term fixed prices which hadn’t been happening because of privatization not Brexit. There are plenty of countries that trade in global markets and are not members of the EU. We are now one of them.
Incidentally, not relevant to your point but there are quite a few influential figures in the EU suggesting Norway should lower its gas prices in the name of Western solidarity. This despite the EU decision several years ago to tear up its fixed price contracts for their gas after having them ruled monopolistic. Short term thinking is pretty common everywhere.

I am not debating BREXIT it's done, I am just highlighting that getting back control means we need to be in control of our commanding heights of industry.

Why would we need to be tied to global prices if we were self-sufficient?

Regards Norway , as part of the EU they should be helping their co-members in times of strife.

The debate now is not about Remain or Leave its about building a fair society in this country where poor people are not going to freeze this winter and putting profit first means that this is always likely to happen.

 

[WATFORD zero]

(As a Remainer) can I just say that our government could make the right decisions just now, it has the tools, but at a colossal financial cost, to save households and businesses on fuel costs.

But it'll probably take a Starmer government to it.

This is wider than the red herring here of Brexit. Putin is trying to screw western Europe as punishment for backing Ukraine, this is accepted everywhere including the BBC and non-right wing papers. Europe one way or another is suffering, except Norway (vast carbon reserves for a tiny population) and France (a huge nuclear power industry, when the rest of Europe and the UK deemed it evil).

I think the UK should nationalise the entire sector and this includes green energy businesses, for energy security and to eliminate quirks such as green energy producers of electricity currently making £b's in profits (because electricity prices here are wrongly pegged to global gas prices).

Is this the right room for a lecture in communism ?

 

[pb21]

Yes, we can certainly remove VAT so we need to vote for a Government that will do so.
I think the EU internal energy market is more a regulatory framework than a pricing mechanism. There are different prices in different EU countries.

We don't need to vote for a Government to do so, the current one can do that now.

Also, I understand that the UK not being part of the EU internal energy market will affect prices, and will do even more so if the shit really hits the fan and we have to rely more on our current interconnectors...

https://www.cornwall-insight.com/divergent-electricity-prices-in-the-wake-of-brexit/

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I agree with [MENTION=34242]Neville's Breakfast[/MENTION] that Brexit hasn't has a major impact on energy prices

It's the raging inflation and reducing GDP that Brexit has majorly fuelled as predicted

Well, I can at least frame that bit WZ. Nearly fell off my chair

To be clear though I wasn’t actually making that claim. Just picking up on the point about regaining control of UK assets from private owners. I’m all in favour but we haven’t had a Government willing to do it since the 1940s, whether in or out of the EU.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I am not debating BREXIT it's done, I am just highlighting that getting back control means we need to be in control of our commanding heights of industry.

Why would we need to be tied to global prices if we were self-sufficient?

Regards Norway , as part of the EU they should be helping their co-members in times of strife.

The debate now is not about Remain or Leave its about building a fair society in this country where poor people are not going to freeze this winter and putting profit first means that this is always likely to happen.

We can’t be self sufficient, which is the reason global trade exists. That has been the case for thousands of years. There is stuff we don’t have and stuff we have too much of so we trade. We actually import a very small proportion of our gas. That isn’t an EU issue. Norway would respond to the point about helping co members by asking shouldn’t the same have applied when the EU reneged on long term contracts and having done so it’s a bit rich to decide they no longer like that decision now prices have gone up.

 

[Weststander]

I’ll look it up, thanks.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/20/kwasi-kwarteng-rein-green-profits-energy-price-cap-set-soar/

 

[Weststander]

Is this the right room for a lecture in communism ?

It's funny how things/thinking change over time.

When Norweb etc were floated in 1990, I had little interest in it either way. I wasn't against it.

Putin's set in chain some events, which I really feel means we should have 100% state control of elec and gas supply, renewables production.