End the War on Drugs - Breaking the Taboo

[Tyrone Biggums]

Alcohol is the drug I am talking about.

Or do you not think that it is a drug?

It's very much a drug.

But if you want to legalize other drugs say which ones.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I'm always interested in these debates as to which drugs the legalize drugs argument is pushing for. it always tends to be the drugs they like to use and then the drugs they don't like they think should stay banned.

Always seems to be a lot of self interest in what should and shouldn't be legalized.

 

[daveinprague]

Of course he did. Marijuana however can have terrible effects on people with potential mental issues. It accelerates and expands the process.

It might be safe for some people, but for other people it sets off a terrible chain of events.

When he wasn't on it, he was a different person. It's all too easy to say oh there's so much evidence to say it's safe. it's safe for some people, but for others its the start of a slippery slope that destroys them and their family.
It's the same as tobacco smokers, someone might say oh I've smoked for 50 years and its not done me any harm. Unfortunately for a lot of other people its killed or ruined their lives.
It's very much a game of Russian roulette it seems.

Ill agree to a point...ive never witnessed it, but I know there are cases where it occurs... ..but its a matter of numbers isnt it... a few people could be badly affected by some legal drugs, that are good for the vast majority....we could ban everything we drink, eat, or imbibe, but that would be a bit boring, and whilst I have some sympathy for people like your friend, they are a very tiny minority from what ive seen, and given to understand. My critieria for drugs, is, if its made by man, its fallable... grass is a natural product...sure they increase its potency etc by crossing etc, but at the end of the day, its a natural product, unlike drugs that require production, as in opiates, cocaine, meth etc.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Ill agree to a point...ive never witnessed it, but I know there are cases where it occurs... ..but its a matter of numbers isnt it... a few people could be badly affected by some legal drugs, that are good for the vast majority....we could ban everything we drink, eat, or imbibe, but that would be a bit boring, and whilst I have some sympathy for people like your friend, they are a very tiny minority from what ive seen, and given to understand.

I have no issue with marijuana as a legitimate medicinal alternative. However as with tobacco smoking unless it's done in the home it should be banned absolutely from every establishment and public place because like it or not it can effect non-smokers.

It also opens up potential for a lot of legal cases if people have medical issues arising from drugs supplied by the government.

 

[folkestonesgull]

there was an interesting report in The Independent last week that after a substantial many year study identified that smoking weed (in particular skunk) can double the chance of mental health issues in anyone....the report pointed out that there had been very little research in to the effects of high concentrations of THC now common in resin (off the top of my head I think thats right) and that this was a defining moment for cannabis, much like the research into tobacco in the 50's and 60's.
I do agree that some drugs should be legalised....this could then ensure proper regulation like with cigarettes and alcohol and taxation to fund the known effects (like cigarettes and alcohol - if these drugs are legal it is only right that taxation is used to fund the necesasary health and other services to deal with their impacts) this is also the view of most experts, however not politicians or the press. It would also ensure that only certain concentrations were legal - Personally I think legislation should only apply to certain recreational drugs...which doesn't do anything to solve the drug wars in South America and Afghanistan .

 

[Nibble]

Of course he did. Marijuana however can have terrible effects on people with potential mental issues. It accelerates and expands the process.

It might be safe for some people, but for other people it sets off a terrible chain of events.

When he wasn't on it, he was a different person. It's all too easy to say oh there's so much evidence to say it's safe. it's safe for some people, but for others its the start of a slippery slope that destroys them and their family.




It's the same as tobacco smokers, someone might say oh I've smoked for 50 years and its not done me any harm. Unfortunately for a lot of other people its killed or ruined their lives.

It's very much a game of Russian roulette it seems.

Well that's not a reason to keep it criminal is it. Alcohol isn't banned because alcoholics exist. Also you seem to have made a fair few assertions backed up by nowt but your mate.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If you have a drug related health issue you expect the public health service to provide you with care for what you put in your body?

I agree you should be able to do what you want. But you should also have to take full responsibility for it and pay 100% for every cost incurred if it causes you damage or damage caused by you.

Using that false argument would suggest that people who drink, people who smoke, people who eat too much, people who catch STDs etc etc should all be denied medical treatment required because of their excesses ??

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If you have a drug related health issue you expect the public health service to provide you with care for what you put in your body?

I agree you should be able to do what you want. But you should also have to take full responsibility for it and pay 100% for every cost incurred if it causes you damage or damage caused by you.

What if someone is stupid enough to get themselves run over? Should they also pay?

 

[half time scores]

It's very much a drug.

But if you want to legalize other drugs say which ones.

I was answering points made on this thread regarding how legalising a drug can cut out most of the criminal side of the industry.

I have known people that have died due to alcohol, that does not make me think that it should be made illegal.

There will always be tragic cases involving mind altering substances, not all people who drink will develop a problem, same goes for many of the illegal drugs

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

For every friend you have that became psychotic from smoking weed, i have 100 who havent.

Does this method apply to everything? Are you OK with relaxing gun laws to make their accessibility available to more people?

There are countless legal and prescribed drugs which have a worse track record of aggrevating mental health issues.

A lot of which end up banned.

Of course if you abuse drugs, including alcohol, every day you are asking for trouble, but everyone knows that an occasional joint is not going to make anyone psychotic. Its a safe drug for a vast majority of people, but like with anything there are exceptions, however that is not a good enough reason to keep this product confined to an unregulated, untaxed black market.

As I said, it's all about being hedonistic and the "it's all about me" attitude.

The point is that people are going to take drugs regardless of legality, it is obviously better for the government to manage and regulate drug use instead of the dealers. Once legalised the laws can be built around each drug on an individual basis - soft drugs widely available but hard drugs only from medical clinics for example. Anything is better than the current system which only rewards criminals but threatens the health and lives of millions of users and addicts.

A lot of people won't take drugs due to the illegality. Make it legal and plenty more will try it no doubt.

Taking drugs can be a hedonistic act, as well as spiritual one or merely a form of relaxation, and it should be our right to do that with the support of our government to make sure we are safe.

Can I assume then you're a nanny state supporter?

You want to do what you like but you want the government to put in place measures to ensure you're looked after when you screw things up.

To me that's socially immature.

 

[father_and_son]

Nobody dies from smoking weed, and that's just one of many safe illegal drugs.

I'm not usually one for outbursts but what a pile of steaming bullshit!

Any drugs which impairs cognitive function (temporarily or permanently) is not "SAFE".

As someone who works in the insurance industry, I can pull file after file and claim after claim relating to people who's lives have been RUINED by someone who drove a car while under the influence of drugs. Death, disfigurement, disablement... take your pick.

Plenty of people die needlessly every year because some arsehole decided to smoke a joint without thinking of the consequences.


Tobacco and Alcohol are both legal and are both taxed and regulated and still underground, black market and unsafe cigarettes and booze is on the street. Don't delude yourself that Legalising something takes away the underworld elements. There's always someone who will produce inferior product cheaper than the official stuff and always someone who'll take the risk and buy it. Thinking anything else is just acting dumb and hiding from the facts.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I was answering points made on this thread regarding how legalising a drug can cut out most of the criminal side of the industry.

I have known people that have died due to alcohol, that does not make me think that it should be made illegal.

There will always be tragic cases involving mind altering substances, not all people who drink will develop a problem, same goes for many of the illegal drugs

Alcohol is a huge problem in society though.

It's not used responsibly at all among large portions of society.

My question is why do people think legalizing drugs means people with use it responsibly?

 

[Scampi]

Discussions about drug policy are always depressing. On the one hand you have the religiously inspired moralising as typified by America and its failed war on drugs, on the other the utopian libertarian fantasists. Between them they crowd out the space for a rational debate.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

What if someone is stupid enough to get themselves run over? Should they also pay?

I can't see the relevance.

You don't deliberately look to get run over(if you do then you're an idiot and should foot the whole bill). You deliberately take drugs though.

 

[Nibble]

Tyrone Biggums, you are descending into nonsense. For every person who has died through drug misuse I could show you ten that would have lived had the drug been available in a prescribed pure form with no crime, debt, prostitution or violence attached to the procurement of it. You are not thinking of the long term, wider effects. Whilst your kind of attitude continues people will continue to be criminilised and put in prison when they should be in hospital and people will continue to die.

I gave up any kind of illegal drug years ago and am trying to quit smoking and booze, not for any moralistic standpoint, I just care about my health but there are people with terrible upbringings full of abuse and violence and drugs who cannot give up just like that. TB et al have a very blinkered view of sections of society. Wake up and smell the heroin Brother.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm always interested in these debates as to which drugs the legalize drugs argument is pushing for. it always tends to be the drugs they like to use and then the drugs they don't like they think should stay banned.

Always seems to be a lot of self interest in what should and shouldn't be legalized.

For what it's worth, all I've ever had is a couple of puffs on a joint and yet I support legalisation of the softer drugs - no agenda of what I like or don't like. I'm even of the mind that legalisation of hard drugs is something that should be considered. I'm not suggesting making them available in the newsagents but the current policies clearly haven't worked for the last 50+ years so some radical thinking is required.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Using that false argument would suggest that people who drink, people who smoke, people who eat too much, people who catch STDs etc etc should all be denied medical treatment required because of their excesses ??

Why shouldn't it be a PAYG system?

I think the message is old and clear enough now that there's no excuse for smoking tobacco for example.

If you're moronic enough to do it and you get an illness related to that action then you pay for your stupidity.

 

[Nibble]

Why shouldn't it be a PAYG system?

I think the message is old and clear enough now that there's no excuse for smoking tobacco for example.

If you're moronic enough to do it and you get an illness related to that action then you pay for your stupidity.

You should remove yourself from this discussion until you have gone away and done some research on the nature of addiction. Your ignorance is increasing with every post.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Why shouldn't it be a PAYG system?

I think the message is old and clear enough now that there's no excuse for smoking tobacco for example.

If you're moronic enough to do it and you get an illness related to that action then you pay for your stupidity.

I assume you pay your Medicare payments ? If you break your leg playing football will you be willing to pay for the treatment ?

It's called National INSURANCE for a reason - it's medical insurance. Some people pay in and don't use it and others pay in and use more than they've paid in - there should be no restriction on emergency treatment for anyone who has paid in. Starting to select who can use the treatment based on what they've done to cause the need will take us back to the dark ages and set us on the road to using the American model of only getting treatment if you can afford it. What if you drink every now and then and get liver cancer ? How is proven that your drinking created the issue ? Even if that is provable, what if you can't afford to pay ? Should we just leave that person to die a slow painful death in the gutter ? Yes, lets go back to Victorian times !

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Tyrone Biggums, you are descending into nonsense. For every person who has died through drug misuse I could show you ten that would have lived had the drug been available in a prescribed pure form with no crime, debt, prostitution or violence attached to the procurement of it. You are not thinking of the long term, wider effects. Whilst your kind of attitude continues people will continue to be criminilised and put in prison when they should be in hospital and people will continue to die.

You're descending into the Nanny state mentality surely?

I'm dead against governments introducing law after law to protect morons from themselves. laws should only be there to protect the innocent from the idiots.

I gave up any kind of illegal drug years ago and am trying to quit smoking and booze, not for any moralistic standpoint, I just care about my health but there are people with terrible upbringings full of abuse and violence and drugs who cannot give up just like that. TB et al have a very blinkered view of sections of society. Wake up and smell the heroin Brother.

There are plenty of people with similar background who don't turn to drugs. If you need drugs to deal with that shit then sorry, life's actually not worth living because when you're on drugs you're not living in a reality. You're simply masking it. Sure that's harsh but if life's not enjoyable carrying that kind of crap for 50 years isn't worth it or fair.

Strangely enough I actually support euthanasia for anyone who wants to do it safely. Give people that option and then we might not have as many of these heroin junkies you're referring to because we've given them a more dignified way to move on.