Employment law help... Untrue bad reference

[bravohotelalpha]

Hi David, unfortunately she is no longer a member of the union however she was when she was at the school she was bullied at, not sure if this makes a difference. It is a state school. She was contracting there for about 3 months and then went of maternity leave. They then offered her a 3 day a week job which she has been doing for 3 months...

As a former teacher I VERY strongly urge your wife to join a union asap. Possibly won't be
able to assist in this situation but any teacher who does not belong to a union is very vulnerable. Good luck ps nothing to lose investigating if a union can help with this situation.

 

[crookie]

If she got her second job with a reference from the school she resigned from it suggests it was not negative and that therefore the reference provided from the same school for her third post 5 years later was quite different - was it signed off by a different individual at the school? This could be very pertinant to any action taken against that school.

I would take advice but presumably the second school has her original reference. If so I would request a copy of this and if provided, send it to the third school to compare with the latest one they have received. If they differ and are signed off by two different people then you may have some joy. Most employers would refer to their original reference 5 years later and it would only vary if new, truthful information had come to light in the interim.

This would seem to be the best advice on the thread. Good luck to the OP, some people in life can be such c**ts sadly. Hope your OH gets this sorted and good luck with the baby. This forum really is a wealth of knowledge on everything

 

[SK1NT]

This would seem to be the best advice on the thread. Good luck to the OP, some people in life can be such c**ts sadly. Hope your OH gets this sorted and good luck with the baby. This forum really is a wealth of knowledge on everything

Thanks Crookie. Agree that this site really is superb. Yea we all bicker about football, different political views etc however when the chips are down people are always there to help. Restores my faith in people. Love NSC



My misses has just told me she has had a few positive references from this school in the past not only for her next job but when she use to do supply work with agencies. Surely this is the avenue to persue

 

[Tarpon]

[MENTION=970]SK1NT[/MENTION] you have probably already read this but just in case:

https://www.gov.uk/work-reference

You are right to pursue proof of other positive references given to agencies. The more of these there are and the more recently they were provided further undermines the later bad reference. It would be very interesting to know what the Governing body of the first school think of such practices.

Lastly, if the first school is also a state school in the same authority as the third then they are likely to share the same HR Dept who can and should look into your concerns directly & hold the job offer while they do so. If it is a state school in another authority you should ask the relevant depts to liaise ASAP (while stating that you while you want the matter resolved amicably you are taking appropriate advice).

Good luck

 

[Gwylan]

I'm really surprised at this. At my last three places of employment, managers were told that under no circumstances should they write references without clearing it with HR - precisely because of this fear of being sued.

Even without the good references from the first school, you'd have a good case for libel and if it's the case that the referee was motivated by malice, there could be a case for punitive damages. However, I'm not a lawyer and, as others have said, seek legal advice as quickly as possible. And keep all paperwork and make diary notes of all relevant dates.

And join a union, they're designed for situations like this!

 

[Bad Ash]

My misses has just told me she has had a few positive references from this school in the past not only for her next job but when she use to do supply work with agencies. Surely this is the avenue to persue

I would suggest that she contacts all of these agencies and the previous school and ask them for a copy of the reference they received from the original school.

The references might be accepted by the new school, but also might be critical in building a case against the original school if they are materially different from the most recent negative reference.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Hi David, unfortunately she is no longer a member of the union however she was when she was at the school she was bullied at, not sure if this makes a difference. It is a state school. She was contracting there for about 3 months and then went of maternity leave. They then offered her a 3 day a week job which she has been doing for 3 months...

The Union thing was just that they should have been able to take up the case if needed.

But it seems to me very, very strange that this has only come to light after an initial 3 month period, then maternity leave than three months in to the new contract, which must be approaching up to a year, if not longer. Even if the references only came in at the beginning of the current three day per week thing, three months in strikes me as very bad practice.

I presume the validity of the untrue reference was questioned in any initial interview/meeting? If not (and even if it was), I would have thought a considered (not angry) approach to the school to review the situation would be worthwhile, particularly if you have any documentary evidence of what happened in the bullying episodes.

Apart from anything else, if this is a disciplinary matter, there has to be a right of appeal.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

References have to be factually accurate and truthful. If one is unfair, misleading or blatantly untrue then legal action can be taken to claim damages.

I'm surprised that anybody would be dismissed on the basis of a bad reference - normally a job will be offered subject to the receipt of acceptable references but employment wouldn't actually start until said references were received and considered. Unfortunately a claim of unfair dismissal is probably not an option as you generally need a qualifying period of employment with the employer of 2 years ( there are exceptions relating to Health and Safety, statutory employment rights, whistleblowing, trade union activity and TUPE transfers, but from what you say I doubt these apply).

I would strongly recommend that in the first instance she asks for a detailed written explanation from her employer as to why she has been dismissed. The only real reason I would have thought that would warrent dismissal is if the employer perceived she has lied to them and that "the lie" is so severe it represents a unrepairable breakdown in trust and confidence.

Very much agree with this. And if the final paragraph is what has actually happened, then that would have been a disciplinary matter as gross misconduct, I would imagine, and so there would have to be a right of appeal.

 

[pearl]

I am hoping that the clever folk at NSC can possibly help or offer guidance to me on a situation I know very little about.

My girlfriend was dismissed from her teaching job today because one of her two references that she had to provide was negative. The negative reference came from a teaching job that she was at 5 years ago which ended with her handing her notice in as she was bullied and treated badly. She use to come home in tears every night. She left on good terms and all seemed fine.

She then got another job straight after based on the reference from this horrid school. So all seemed fine. Anyway 5 years later she has used this school as a reference again as she needed to provide two references and she’s only worked at two schools full time (she has done a year of contracting) only to find that the reference came back negative. Her current employers did all they could to keep her even with a negative reference however the HR dep won’t allow it.

My girlfriend wouldn’t say boo to a goose and takes her profession seriously. Every job she has done over the years has always ended with glowing comments. Over the last 5 years from her employment at this school it seems that the lady who use to bully her has progressed into a position that she can influence a reference. I can honestly say that any negative reference about her in this role is defamation.

I read that references are remissible. Is there anything I can do or should I get an employment lawyer involved.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as we have a new baby and without her salary things could be very very tough.

I think she can do something about this as employers aren't allowed to give a negative reference. Is she in a union? I'm at work atm, but I'll look into it over the weekend as I have a lot of reference books etc on employment law at home

 

[pearl]

Hi David, unfortunately she is no longer a member of the union however she was when she was at the school she was bullied at, not sure if this makes a difference. It is a state school. She was contracting there for about 3 months and then went of maternity leave. They then offered her a 3 day a week job which she has been doing for 3 months...

years ago I fell out with the union I was in at the time (NGA), but they still helped me when I was made redundant so could be worth her contacting the union anyway.

And yeah NSC is amazing!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I find it difficult to believe that ANY teacher thinks it makes sense not to be a member of a trade union. There are, after all, plenty to choose from in the teaching profession.

Just as an example of one reason for belonging to a union ... How does she imagine that she might defend herself against a false accusation of professional misconduct?

 

[bravohotelalpha]

I find it difficult to believe that ANY teacher thinks it makes sense not to be a member of a trade union. There are, after all, plenty to choose from in the teaching profession.

Just as an example of one reason for belonging to a union ... How does she imagine that she might defend herself against a false accusation of professional misconduct?

Spot on Lord B !

 

[Emily's Mum]

If the contract that she signed for the job she has been sacked for said her employment was subject to satisfactory references, then she hasn't been sacked, she's just had the offer taken away. I don't see how she was allowed to start work without references.
All public sector references should be handled by the relevant HR departments, simply to avoid this sort of situation where clearly someone who didn't like her is in a position of power.
Anything in writing that is untrue is libellous.
She could try writing to the HR department of the LEA concerned and tell them what has happened, but I think the sensible option is to seek legal advice.
You get what you pay for most of the time and sometimes you have to invest in legal advice in order to secure what is right. This is one of those times. As a public sector HR Manager I know what can and cannot be said in references, clearly what has been said in this case is not allowed


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[SK1NT]

I think she can do something about this as employers aren't allowed to give a negative reference. Is she in a union? I'm at work atm, but I'll look into it over the weekend as I have a lot of reference books etc on employment law at home

Thanks [MENTION=34281]pearl[/MENTION] she isn't in a union now however she was when she was at the school she was mistreated at. Will they accept the case as technically she was with the union at this time?

I find it difficult to believe that ANY teacher thinks it makes sense not to be a member of a trade union. There are, after all, plenty to choose from in the teaching profession.

Just as an example of one reason for belonging to a union ... How does she imagine that she might defend herself against a false accusation of professional misconduct?

I agree [MENTION=6]Lord Bracknell[/MENTION] however we were really struggling financial and unfortunately she decided it was a monthly payment we had to stop. I however didn't really understand the importance of it.

 

[rippleman]

For reasons stated, we never give a "bad" reference.

If we receive a reference request for somebody with whom we had issues, our response is:

" We can confirm that <insert name> was employed by us from <insert date> to <insert date>" and then hope the prospective employer gets the message!

It is just not worth the risk of becoming embroiled in a lengthy and costly legal battle as a result of giving a bad reference for a bad employee

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I am hoping that the clever folk at NSC can possibly help or offer guidance to me on a situation I know very little about.

My girlfriend was dismissed from her teaching job today because one of her two references that she had to provide was negative. The negative reference came from a teaching job that she was at 5 years ago which ended with her handing her notice in as she was bullied and treated badly. She use to come home in tears every night. She left on good terms and all seemed fine.

She then got another job straight after based on the reference from this horrid school. So all seemed fine. Anyway 5 years later she has used this school as a reference again as she needed to provide two references and she’s only worked at two schools full time (she has done a year of contracting) only to find that the reference came back negative. Her current employers did all they could to keep her even with a negative reference however the HR dep won’t allow it.

My girlfriend wouldn’t say boo to a goose and takes her profession seriously. Every job she has done over the years has always ended with glowing comments. Over the last 5 years from her employment at this school it seems that the lady who use to bully her has progressed into a position that she can influence a reference. I can honestly say that any negative reference about her in this role is defamation.

I read that references are remissible. Is there anything I can do or should I get an employment lawyer involved.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as we have a new baby and without her salary things could be very very tough.

Not sure if this will help but having contracted for over 20 years and always used contracting references, here's my advice...

1. Contracting references are as good as references from a permanent job, particularly if the contract lasted a reasonable amount of time, say, six months minimum. In fact I'd say they were better in your g/f's case, being more recent. Employers will probably be less interested in a reference from five years ago, than in your two most recent positions.

2. Always try and get a written reference from your boss on their company/school headed paper before you leave your current position. People move on, previous employers can be hard to contact, and with a written reference you get a chance to check out what they've written about you! If you present a selection of these in a sealed envelope at the end of a job interview, interviewers will always open that envelope and will get a good overall feel for you, based on a few different unconnected people's professional opinion. In many cases they'll accept the written references without doing a follow-up phone call to that referee.

Good luck!

 

[bravohotelalpha]

If the contract that she signed for the job she has been sacked for said her employment was subject to satisfactory references, then she hasn't been sacked, she's just had the offer taken away. I don't see how she was allowed to start work without references.
All public sector references should be handled by the relevant HR departments, simply to avoid this sort of situation where clearly someone who didn't like her is in a position of power.
Anything in writing that is untrue is libellous.
She could try writing to the HR department of the LEA concerned and tell them what has happened, but I think the sensible option is to seek legal advice.
You get what you pay for most of the time and sometimes you have to invest in legal advice in order to secure what is right. This is one of those times. As a public sector HR Manager I know what can and cannot be said in references, clearly what has been said in this case is not allowed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Precisely - this is why union membership is so important for teachers - legal support and advice + more provided

 

[bravohotelalpha]

Thanks [MENTION=34281]pearl[/MENTION] she isn't in a union now however she was when she was at the school she was mistreated at. Will they accept the case as technically she was with the union at this time?






I agree [MENTION=6]Lord Bracknell[/MENTION] however we were really struggling financial and unfortunately she decided it was a monthly payment we had to stop. I however didn't really understand the importance of it.

Phone the union concerned and ask them - answer may vary from union to union

 

[Bodian]

This does seem rather an odd situation. If she had been doing the job satisfactorily for three months (and more), then a reference from an employer five years ago should really not matter that greatly to the current employer. They should be able to judge the employee's character, ability, and so on from what they know - not what they have since received from an embittered previous colleague.

It strikes me that this reference received must have been truly awful to have prompted such an action (or the HR team are all jobsworths). Has she actually got a copy of the reference, as I'm sure in this day and age she can demand to see it (when I started my current job I found half of my reference from my previous employer on the photocopier, and asked for the rest - even then HR were a bit reluctant, but did give me the full copy). And as others have said, if it differs from all the other previous references from the previous school - then surely the new school must take this into account? A poster mentioned before that the only reason they could think of was that the school consider she told them a 'big lie'. I agree - but if she can come up with the goods to show that she didn't, then there would no longer be any justification for dismissing her.

In local authority life (unlike in some sectors) you shouldn't be able to just dismiss someone (or even take their offer away) without sitting down and having a proper discussion and explanation. And that should include the ability for her to argue her case.

Good luck.

And yes - try the union anyway. 17 years ago I was sacked for 'gross misconduct' (basically a stitch up to protect the bosses who had cocked up - they selected the only two temporary staff, who weren't in the union to 'pay for it'). Anyway, I wasn't in the union - but as I wanted to fight it, and they hated the head of HR and had been waiting for someone to take him on, they let me join and backdated my membership!. We won, and the head of HR left very shortly afterwards with no notice or warning.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Does her new employer think they have dismissed her? My understanding is that, in most circumstances, a fair dismissal has to include a written statement of the reasons for the dismissal and a right to appeal against the decision. Has she been given these? If not, take the matter up with ACAS.