[Misc] Electric Cars

[Flounce]

Ah, conveyance, as opposed to 'driving' I get that. They're all too heavy though.

Any EV track days available

 

[Audax]

Every EV I’ve had a ride in has had the driver show me how fast it accelerates within moments of getting in the sewing machine sounding abominations

And I did the same for my dad in my Zoe. But that doesn't mean I do it every single day at every single junction. Unless I'm on a road with a 70mph limit, the Eco mode stays switched on and the acceleration potential is significantly curtailed.

 

[zefarelly]

Any EV track days available

Wasn't the fastest time up the hill at Goodwood an EV?

It's all personal, like clothes and food. . . . We all have different taste. . . .

I did have a discussion with an engineer boffin/friend about electrifying a classic but retaining its gearbox so you could 'drive' it.

most modern petrol cars have semi auto gearboxes now . . . Like our Alfas. . . . . . . . All the modern scooters are auto, as are many bikes, or semi auto . . .

One must keep an old nail or two in the shed, just in case.

 

[Fungus]

Reliability comes in time with correct development. The Subarus up until about 2006/7 were the last of the truly manual cars, so exrtremely robust and reliable. .

Electric vehicles must be a lot harder on tyres and brakes given theyre so bloody heavy, they should be taxed as well for wrecking ehat little left of the roads.

the biggest issue with all cars now is the size of the things, they're all too big and to heavy. road tax needs splitting into sub catogories, emissions footprint and weight at the very least. . . For all PLG vehicles. Vans are another issue, shit loads of stinky diesels racing round towns with one tradie in it and a bag of tools.

I barely use the brakes on my Peugeot e208. My driving style is “relaxed”, and the car has a “brake mode” which is effectively engine-braking combined with regenerative charging. Brilliant for the local winding hill roads. And the e208 is probably lighter than most other EVs.

 

[Fungus]

And I did the same for my dad in my Zoe. But that doesn't mean I do it every single day at every single junction. Unless I'm on a road with a 70mph limit, the Eco mode stays switched on and the acceleration potential is significantly curtailed.

I’ve only used the Sport mode once on my e208. Floored it from a standing start and was almost immediately 10mph over the speed limit, uphill! Eco all the way now

 

[chip]

Keep in mind that EVs are driven differently. While they are heavier like-for-like, drivers who want to maximise efficiency will learn to do things like lift-and-coast and let the energy recovery system slow the vehicle down instead of leaning heavily on the brakes. As a result, generally speaking an EV will spend *a lot* less time under heavy braking (which is what wears the pads etc). Less time under heavy braking means less road damage as well, as the lift-and-coast doesn't result in braking energy being transferred through the compressing tyres (due to weight transfer) into the road surface. Similarly, the typical EV being driven for efficiency won't be asked to accelerate as hard out of junctions (again, weight/energy transfer does the damage ... don't accelerate as hard, don't do as much damage).

I think your argument is flawed. Regenerative braking is still braking and results in forces at the tyre/road interface. These forces will be higher in an EV due to the higher mass, Most of the force is viscous friction, it doesn't matter whether the brakes are used or the transmission, the force at the tyres/road is still the same regardless of it being brake friction or electromotive. The tyres will still compress and the vehicle attitude change when the power pedal is lifted. Your arguments apply to petrol vehicles with energy recovery too. The ammount of time a car spend under heavy braking is tiny, do pot holes only appear at junctions?

On the other hand, the higher torque at lower wheel speeds will cause more road surface damage as the friction will try and lift the road surface, It isn't just braking that causes damage to roads. Cornering will also produce shear forces that will be considerably higher in an EV than a lighter vehicle.

 

[chickens]

I think your argument is flawed. Regenerative braking is still braking and results in forces at the tyre/road interface. These forces will be higher in an EV due to the higher mass, Most of the force is viscous friction, it doesn't matter whether the brakes are used or the transmission, the force at the tyres/road is still the same regardless of it being brake friction or electromotive. The tyres will still compress and the vehicle attitude change when the power pedal is lifted. Your arguments apply to petrol vehicles with energy recovery too. The ammount of time a car spend under heavy braking is tiny, do pot holes only appear at junctions?

On the other hand, the higher torque at lower wheel speeds will cause more road surface damage as the friction will try and lift the road surface, It isn't just braking that causes damage to roads. Cornering will also produce shear forces that will be considerably higher in an EV than a lighter vehicle.

Mercedes Benz GLC (fossil fuel) kerbweight: 2530kg

Mercedes Benz EQC (all electric - otherwise identical vehicle) kerbweight: 2425kg

Yes, heavy vehicles put more strain on roads and tyres than light ones, but electrification isn’t the problem. EVs have heavy batteries, and fossil fuel cars have heavy engines and fluid filled components.

You absolutely have an argument for choosing lighter vehicles, but electrification isn’t the problem here, it’s the fact that we’re sitting alone in 2.5 tonnes of SUV whereas a generation ago we’d be sat in 1.5 tonnes of hatchback.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

And I did the same for my dad in my Zoe. But that doesn't mean I do it every single day at every single junction. Unless I'm on a road with a 70mph limit, the Eco mode stays switched on and the acceleration potential is significantly curtailed.

Yep, exactly that. I had a Genesis GV60 a while back and used the 'boost' button about twice. The novelty quickly wears off, especially when the available range drops off.

I've driven mostly EV for the past three years and, while it's fun to have all that power, I drive much more sedately than I used to. I still get a kick out of driving, but it's definitely different.

 

[Audax]

I think your argument is flawed. Regenerative braking is still braking and results in forces at the tyre/road interface. These forces will be higher in an EV due to the higher mass, Most of the force is viscous friction, it doesn't matter whether the brakes are used or the transmission, the force at the tyres/road is still the same regardless of it being brake friction or electromotive. The tyres will still compress and the vehicle attitude change when the power pedal is lifted. Your arguments apply to petrol vehicles with energy recovery too. The ammount of time a car spend under heavy braking is tiny, do pot holes only appear at junctions?

On the other hand, the higher torque at lower wheel speeds will cause more road surface damage as the friction will try and lift the road surface, It isn't just braking that causes damage to roads. Cornering will also produce shear forces that will be considerably higher in an EV than a lighter vehicle.

Are you forgetting that with regenerative braking any harvested energy is not being transferred into the road. It is instead being collected and going into the battery. By implication, that means less energy transfer into the road surface. There are now plenty of scientific studies out there that confirm categorically that EVs have far, far lower brake pad wear (and wear through the rest of the braking system) than ICE vehicles do due to the very different way that EVs decelerate, the implication of which is that there is far less energy being "wasted" in creating wear and tear on both braking systems and the road surface.

You're also forgetting about weight transfer and the distance over which the forces are applied. The typical ICE driver will leave their braking late, apply the brake with significant force, and weight transfer will put more of the car's weight onto the front tyres over a short distance. A typical EV driver does not do this. Regenerative braking is more efficient if you don't apply the brakes at all, or only minimally. As such "braking" commences further away from the corner / junction, there is less weight transfer onto the front tyres, and the energy transfer into the road is spread over a longer length of road while also being less due to energy being recovered into the battery.

Similarly, under acceleration the typical EV driver will generally be using an Eco mode that limits the torque applied - again, because it is more efficient. EV drivers tend to be far more aware of how their driving habits impact on things like range, and adjust their driving accordingly.

Not saying that EV's extra weight isn't an issue - it is, because extra weight will mean more friction even when ignoring braking/acceleration. But that effect has been blown way out of proportion and is not as big an issue as the pro-fossil lobby want people to think, especially after taking into account differing driving patterns. Interesting read on the Guardian from a few months back (including the key part that battery R&D is rapidly reducing the weight of battery needed to achieve a given range, so it won't be too long until EVs weight comes down much closer to ICE anyway):

Are electric cars too heavy for roads, bridges and car parks?

In part eight of our series exploring myths surrounding EVs, we examine whether they will break our infrastructure

www.theguardian.com

Edit to add: the biggest problem with wear and tear on the roads is HGVs, buses, etc. The next biggest is the fascination of society and manufacturers with big, heavy, SUVs ... both ICE and EV (although, interestingly, many popular EV SUVs are lighter than ICE SUVs).

 

[chip]

Are you forgetting that with regenerative braking any harvested energy is not being transferred into the road. It is instead being collected and going into the battery. By implication, that means less energy transfer into the road surface. There are now plenty of scientific studies out there that confirm categorically that EVs have far, far lower brake pad wear (and wear through the rest of the braking system) than ICE vehicles do due to the very different way that EVs decelerate, the implication of which is that there is far less energy being "wasted" in creating wear and tear on both braking systems and the road surface.

You're also forgetting about weight transfer and the distance over which the forces are applied. The typical ICE driver will leave their braking late, apply the brake with significant force, and weight transfer will put more of the car's weight onto the front tyres over a short distance. A typical EV driver does not do this. Regenerative braking is more efficient if you don't apply the brakes at all, or only minimally. As such "braking" commences further away from the corner / junction, there is less weight transfer onto the front tyres, and the energy transfer into the road is spread over a longer length of road while also being less due to energy being recovered into the battery.

Similarly, under acceleration the typical EV driver will generally be using an Eco mode that limits the torque applied - again, because it is more efficient. EV drivers tend to be far more aware of how their driving habits impact on things like range, and adjust their driving accordingly.

Not saying that EV's extra weight isn't an issue - it is, because extra weight will mean more friction even when ignoring braking/acceleration. But that effect has been blown way out of proportion and is not as big an issue as the pro-fossil lobby want people to think, especially after taking into account differing driving patterns. Interesting read on the Guardian from a few months back (including the key part that battery R&D is rapidly reducing the weight of battery needed to achieve a given range, so it won't be too long until EVs weight comes down much closer to ICE anyway):

Are electric cars too heavy for roads, bridges and car parks?

In part eight of our series exploring myths surrounding EVs, we examine whether they will break our infrastructure

www.theguardian.com

Edit to add: the biggest problem with wear and tear on the roads is HGVs, buses, etc. The next biggest is the fascination of society and manufacturers with big, heavy, SUVs ... both ICE and EV (although, interestingly, many popular EV SUVs are lighter than ICE SUVs).

In my car, when you first depress the brake or lift of the accelerator it uses the regenerative braking system just like an EV. I think I drive as you describe because I like seeing the battery charge light getting greener (might be blue, I'm a little colour blind). Perhaps, these technologies encourage us to drive better?

I agree, that regen braking isn't wearing out the brake pads, but it still causes a reaction force at the wheels as that is what slows the car down and is the friction between the road surface and tyres. Instead of converting kinetic energy to heat through friction using brakesit is converted to electrical energy and heat by a generator. This is just Newtons laws, the same force must arise when the car acceleration is negative however the energy is dissipated/stored and this results in a corresponding force at the tyres.

I don't know where you get your understanding of how EVs are operated but it doesn't concur with my observations I don't disagee about driving style affecting how the forces are transmitted to the road surface or really have anything against EVs (apart from cost and size). I'd quite like one that could also act as part of a PV+battery system at home but don't want an expensive tank on the drive. I also think that there are plenty of other reasons for the state of the roads, I doubt EVs are a big cause of wear and tear overall.

 

[zefarelly]

Mercedes Benz GLC (fossil fuel) kerbweight: 2530kg

Mercedes Benz EQC (all electric - otherwise identical vehicle) kerbweight: 2425kg

Yes, heavy vehicles put more strain on roads and tyres than light ones, but electrification isn’t the problem. EVs have heavy batteries, and fossil fuel cars have heavy engines and fluid filled components.

You absolutely have an argument for choosing lighter vehicles, but electrification isn’t the problem here, it’s the fact that we’re sitting alone in 2.5 tonnes of SUV whereas a generation ago we’d be sat in 1.5 tonnes of hatchback.

60's & 70's family saloon cars were in the 800-1000kg territory.

less creature comforts granted, but they looked a lot better.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Wasn't the fastest time up the hill at Goodwood an EV?

It's all personal, like clothes and food. . . . We all have different taste. . . .

I did have a discussion with an engineer boffin/friend about electrifying a classic but retaining its gearbox so you could 'drive' it.

most modern petrol cars have semi auto gearboxes now . . . Like our Alfas. . . . . . . . All the modern scooters are auto, as are many bikes, or semi auto . . .

One must keep an old nail or two in the shed, just in case.

I‘ve seen a fair few electric Porscher’s which I find very strange, as the reason you’d buy a Porsche would be for the engine …

 

[Audax]

but it still causes a reaction force at the wheels as that is what slows the car down and is the friction between the road surface and tyres. Instead of converting kinetic energy to heat through friction using brakesit is converted to electrical energy and heat by a generator. This is just Newtons laws, the same force must arise when the car acceleration is negative however the energy is dissipated/stored and this results in a corresponding force at the tyres.

Yes, it does. But I've been driving an EV for nearly 4 years now. I know, absolutely, that I am not putting anywhere near as much weight transfer through the front tyres under braking as I do in my Prius (a hybrid, which also has regen braking, but not to the same extent as my pure electric Zoe), and the Prius is doing less than I did when I drove my Mrs' Focus several years back.

Focus driving habit: carry speed longer, brake closer to corner, with more braking force applied, weight is thrown onto the front tyres across a short span of road.

Prius driving habit: lift off ahead of corner, brake a little further away and more lightly, less weight transfer and across a longer span of road.

Zoe driving habit: lift off well ahead of corner, avoid using the brakes at all letting regen do the work, even less weight transfer and across an even longer span of road.

Point is the total forces might be the same, but how they are transferred to the road is different and that cannot be ignored. The impact of the weight of EVs on road maintenance is massively overstated by certain lobby groups (whether those invested in fossils, or those invested in weight-resistant road building, etc).

 

[zefarelly]

Vacuum gauge anyone?

 

[chickens]

60's & 70's family saloon cars were in the 800-1000kg territory.

less creature comforts granted, but they looked a lot better.

Absolutely. A fair chunk of that is crumple zones and reinforced structure etc, which I struggle to argue against because, should the worst happen, I want the people involved to be able to walk away.

Vehicle designers between the 1930s and late 1970s had such freedom to create that I do (from a purely aesthetic perspective) wish we lived in a world where drag coefficients didn’t matter and designers had greater freedom to invent.

Having said that, there were an awful lot of cars in that time that looked incredible but had characteristics that could throw the unwary driver off the road and through the nearest hedge.

 

[zefarelly]

Absolutely. A fair chunk of that is crumple zones and reinforced structure etc, which I struggle to argue against because, should the worst happen, I want the people involved to be able to walk away.

Vehicle designers between the 1930s and late 1970s had such freedom to create that I do (from a purely aesthetic perspective) wish we lived in a world where drag coefficients didn’t matter and designers had greater freedom to invent.

Having said that, there were an awful lot of cars in that time that looked incredible but had characteristics that could throw the unwary driver off the road and through the nearest hedge.

Take the crumple zone away . . . . You don't drive like a **** . . . .

If you do . . . . You Take the ****s away . . .

the roads are safer and much nicer . . .

It's win/win

 

[GOM]

Sounds similar to me - long drives are very few and far between these days.

When my old Civic finally gives up the ghost, I do wonder if a hybrid would be the best option.

50-100 mile battery range would cover 95%+ of my driving, enabling me to charge for pennies at home as and when.

For longer drives, it seems that the chargers, certainly the quick ones, cost about the same as petrol so why not just use petrol and do away with the hassle of finding available and working chargers and having to sit around for a bit waiting.

Worst of both worlds. Why lug around a heavy engine/gearbox/exhaust etc while in EV mode? Why drag around a heavy battery and motor while in fossil fuel mode? Plug in hybrids are expensive to buy too. Expensive servicing as well.
If you can plug in and charge at home for pennies with a hybrid then obviously the same applies to a full EV. The occasional trip when you need to charge on the road will barely put a dent in the average overall cost of charging. Servicing costs are generally far less if any at all for a full EV. Teslas don't require any servicing at all. The legacy makers like to keep a small income stream going though, First year service kick the tyres. Second year service kick the tyres twice.
And I never sit around a bit while the car is charging, it does it while I'm busy doing other things such as visiting the loo and/or getting a coffee etc, not something you can do filling an ICE.

 

[Bozza]

And I never sit around a bit while the car is charging, it does it while I'm busy doing other things such as visiting the loo and/or getting a coffee etc, not something you can do filling an ICE.

That sounds like what a lot of folk say, and I was one of them for a while, who commute up from the coast to London every day.

"No, I don't mind all the time on the train - I get to read books and watch Netflix"

It's utter bollocks - I wouldn't ordinarily choose to spend 90 minutes early in the morning, and the same in the early evening, reading and watching Netflix.

On longer drives, I wouldn't choose to spend 30-45 minutes (or whatever it takes) having a wee - I just want to get where I'm going. I may not need a wee at all or I'll need to go later on, not when the cat needs to be charged.

But maybe the rest of your post is correct and I'm overstating that occasional inconvenience, and I just suck it up. Regardless. it's not an imminent decision for me, so one for thought later on.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

That sounds like what a lot of folk say, and I was one of them for a while, who commute up from the coast to London every day.

"No, I don't mind all the time on the train - I get to read books and watch Netflix"

It's utter bollocks - I wouldn't ordinarily choose to spend 90 minutes early in the morning, and the same in the early evening, reading and watching Netflix.

On longer drives, I wouldn't choose to spend 30-45 minutes (or whatever it takes) having a wee - I just want to get where I'm going. I may not need a wee at all or I'll need to go later on, not when the cat needs to be charged.

But maybe the rest of your post is correct and I'm overstating that occasional inconvenience, and I just suck it up. Regardless. it's not an imminent decision for me, so one for thought later on.

You charge your cat for taking a car ride? I can tell you are really dog person!

 

[Audax]

That sounds like what a lot of folk say, and I was one of them for a while, who commute up from the coast to London every day.

"No, I don't mind all the time on the train - I get to read books and watch Netflix"

It's utter bollocks - I wouldn't ordinarily choose to spend 90 minutes early in the morning, and the same in the early evening, reading and watching Netflix.

On longer drives, I wouldn't choose to spend 30-45 minutes (or whatever it takes) having a wee - I just want to get where I'm going. I may not need a wee at all or I'll need to go later on, not when the cat needs to be charged.

But maybe the rest of your post is correct and I'm overstating that occasional inconvenience, and I just suck it up. Regardless. it's not an imminent decision for me, so one for thought later on.

Food for thought maybe: In nearly 4 years, and 26k miles under the wheels, I've not once plugged my Zoe into a paid charger. Back when Tesco allowed free charging on their 7.5kwh rate I used those a few times, but only when I was parking in the Tesco anyway.

Beyond that, all of my charging has either been done at home or at the office. The office commute is 65 miles each way. I've only twice in all that time had genuine range anxiety ... both times through my own errors. First time was a few months after getting it: took it to the office in winter, forgot to turn off the scheduled charging and therefore got no charge, and the trip home was via a detour work event. Solved that particular problem by using the home charger smart controls to schedule charges at home and turned off the in-car scheduler. Second time was more recently, knew I had a longer trip than normal (up to Watford) but forgot to top up over night, so left home without full battery. GPS then chose to take a longer route than I'd expected. With that one, got home with about 5 miles range left ... but I could have stopped along the way for a quicky top up if needed. Instead I moderated my driving more than usual (more lift and coast etc) and it was fine in the end.

I've actually had range anxiety more frequently on my ICE motorcycle than in the EV.