Ed Milliband..... I do believe he's got it.

[User removed 4]

The Abu Hamsas of this world didn't all enter the country on Labour's watch. The ghettos started appearing under Thatcher and continued under Major - remember Toxteth and Brixton.

My point is that you write post after post slaughtering Labour but barely hear a peep out of you on the Tory's very similar record on immigration.

They really , really dont have a similar record on immigration, why on earth are you mentioning brixton and toxteth in relation to the virtually unchecked immigration from sub saharan africa that labour allowed you only have to read the reports every time another "promising footballer" or "talented rapper" is killed , the amount of them that were brought here from africa for a " better life" is unreal, there was a girl killed just down the road from where i used to live in battersea , she was stabbed through the temple with a comb, apparently one of the witnesses said it "made a sound like when we slaughter a goat" back home , anyway , i think we're moving ever so slightly off topic here !!

 

[Seagull58]

They didn't have to work that one out because you are talking out of your arse.

There is nothing wrong with providing jobs in the public sector providing we are paying for jobs that need doing and we are prepared to pay for them to be done. For example, if we cut out all the pot hole filling companies in the name of austerity, then not only will our roads crumble away, meaning business has to find expensive or less efficient alternatives to the road, but also we don't have any pot hole filling businesses to fill them if the money ever does return.

How many of the half a million public sector jobs that Brown created were pothole fillers? My argument is still accurate. A public sector job is paid 100% from the public purse and only gives a small percentage back in taxes. Maybe as high as 45% if you include indirect taxes such as VAT and petrol.

 

[Seagull58]

Did he? I'm doing this from memory but I thought Labour halved the debt intially but then spent rebuilded schools, hospitals and services which had been heavily neglected for decades and the debt rose to just shy of what Labour originally inherited. Then the banking crisis happened and they obviously had to borrow over and above previous levels to bail the banks out.

In '97 Labour promised to stick with the Tory spending plans for 3 years. That may well be one of the few promises they kept. Hence the debt did not rise. It fell 1.) because he sold the gold reserves (at the bottom of the market) and 2.) because he inherited a thriving economy with good tax revenues. After that Brown spent all he had and much more.

 

[Seagull58]

The Abu Hamsas of this world didn't all enter the country on Labour's watch. The ghettos started appearing under Thatcher and continued under Major - remember Toxteth and Brixton.

My point is that you write post after post slaughtering Labour but barely hear a peep out of you on the Tory's very similar record on immigration.

And would I ignore policies? Probably not, but my attitude towards the EC is that we should be more like the French. At the core of Europe and cosying up with other states leaves you in a better position to shape policy and secure your own country, as opposed to whining and sniping from the outside.

The ghettos of Toxteth and Brixtion were there before Thatcher took power in '79. Thatcher had only been in power for 2 years by the time of the '81 riots. It was under Wilson, Callaghan and their predecessors, including Heath, that those ghettos grew.

 

[beorhthelm]

Did he? I'm doing this from memory but I thought Labour halved the debt intially but then spent rebuilded schools, hospitals and services which had been heavily neglected for decades and the debt rose to just shy of what Labour originally inherited. Then the banking crisis happened and they obviously had to borrow over and above previous levels to bail the banks out.

much of that investment on schools and hospitals was done on PFI, so wasnt counted at the time (but paying the ongoing charges is in the current budgets). banking crisis incurred a one time payment of ~45Bn. the deficit was £34bn and rising in '07. then the crisis happend and all the borrowing that was hidden in PFI dried up and the growth projections screwed up the revenue. currently the decifit is being brought down, not as quickly as intended. the debt goes on up all the time there is deficit, we are years away from making inroads into that.

 

[supaseagull]

That may be true, but you'll have to remind me what the Tory policy on immigration is. All I see is big talk and no action.

Yes and in fact, despite what the Daily Mail will say, according to the Office of National Statistics net migration to the UK has risen dramatically in the 3 years the Conservative/Libs have been in power so despite their bluster on immigration, their policies are not working.

It's also laughable what people are sayiing about the minimum wage. The minimum wage is of £6.75 or whatever it is amounts to approximately £12.5 k per annum...Couple that with the fact that there are apprenticeship wages of around £3.70 per hour for 16-21 year olds working out at £6.7k per annum.

I would love for those who are knocking the minimum wage to explain how anyone in the South East with a family could be expected to live a reasonable life on these salaries.

The minimum wage, despite what HovaGirl has said has not lost millions of jobs to Eastern Europeans - this is complete tosh I'm afraid. The "backhanders" would still exist irrespective of the introduction of the minimum wage only it would be legal to do it.

 

[HovaGirl]

I don't think anyone can dispute the contribution Eastern Europeans and workers from outside the EU have made to this country has been great. My problem with mass immigration has always been the pressures it is putting on our services such as schools, hospitals, doctors and the welfare system. It's not fair on people who have paid in to the system for years to end up receiving a degraded service due to government cut backs, and because of the extra costs associated with allowing all these extra people in to the system. We will eventually get to the stage, where we will not have enough housing or services to cope with the demand of mass immigration in the future.

I do believe that people coming to live and work in this country should pay a bit more in tax for at least 5 years, which would then give them the entitlement to all our other benefits, and I do believe they should have the funds all ready in place to able to fund their stay over here so they don't immediately become a burden on the system, and also have the necessary qualifications. It's not too much to ask, it's being fair and it's protecting the system that our parents and grandparents have paid in to for years. Things like the NHS are fanstastic, but if we are not careful I can see this going.

None of the above really seems to be happening. I agree it is getting a lot tougher to get in to this country, but it's still not enough in my opinion.

Labour's policy on immigration is poor. They don't really want to talk about it, or tackle the real issues. Millibands idea of cutting immigration levels is to get rid of gang masters and make sure everyone gets the minimum wage so that British workers don't get undercut, that is not really going to solve the problem is it, It's weak. Milliband talks about a United Britain, what the hell does it all mean? It sounds like that thing Brown said, British jobs for British workers.

This and many other reasons are why I don't want Labour running this country. It would be a disaster.

Agree with every word.

 

[HovaGirl]

Dont agree with you there Hova Girl, the minimum wage is a good thing, what has cost us jobs are the wankers who let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in, and the people who will employ them off the books.

They employ them off the books because that way, they can pay less than the minimum wage. If there was no minimum wage, profit-seeking employers wouldn't have to resort to paying off the books. They could pay low wages on the books. (OK, so low wages, by itself, is not a good thing, but at least it keeps the jobs home-grown and reduces immigration.)

 

[HovaGirl]

It's simple. Make the banks lend to small businesses and incentivise small businesses to take on staff by cutting red tape and Employer's NI. Is that beyond the wit of the gvernment?

The Government can't make the banks do anything. Banks are not political departments but money-lending scaredy-cats who feel that people and businesses cannot afford to repay their loans at this time. Hence, they are not lending.

 

[User removed 4]

They employ them off the books because that way, they can pay less than the minimum wage. If there was no minimum wage, profit-seeking employers wouldn't have to resort to paying off the books. They could pay low wages on the books. (OK, so low wages, by itself, is not a good thing, but at least it keeps the jobs home-grown and reduces immigration.)

What I'm saying is, the problem is illegals and eastern europeans, if there were no illegals or eastern europeans willing to work off the books then whats the problem witha minimum wage? if you cant stay in business paying someone £15,000 a year for a 40 hour week, then perhaps you shouldn't be in business.

 

[HovaGirl]

Did he? I'm doing this from memory but I thought Labour halved the debt intially but then spent rebuilded schools, hospitals and services which had been heavily neglected for decades and the debt rose to just shy of what Labour originally inherited. Then the banking crisis happened and they obviously had to borrow over and above previous levels to bail the banks out.

No, Labour didn't halve the debt. Mrs Thatcher followed by John Major achieved that. The Blair Government found themselves with money in their purse and off they went and spent it all. When that ran out, Brown sold the national gold at a knock-down price and when he ran out of commodities to sell, Labour borrowed, borrowed and borrowed some more. When they couldn't borrow any more, they began printing money. Worthless money, because there was neither gold nor anything else to back it. When Labour left office, one of the financial punks left a note for the incoming Governemnt saying the money had all gone, there was no more left.

 

[HovaGirl]

What I'm saying is, the problem is illegals and eastern europeans, if there were no illegals or eastern europeans willing to work off the books then whats the problem witha minimum wage? if you cant stay in business paying someone £15,000 a year for a 40 hour week, then perhaps you shouldn't be in business.

It SHOULD be that way round, but it isn't. There has been high immigration BECAUSE of the minimum wage. Immigrants coming here earn far more than they would at home, even when it is less than our minimum wage. Further, most of those immigrants send their wages back to their home countries, either as savings, or to help their own elderly or families. Billions of pounds have been pouring out of the country to the native homes of immigrants. Further, those immigrants paid less than the minimum wage on the black economy, have not paid tax. Had those jobs been held at less than the minimum wage by British taxpayers, not only would the country have received more in tax, but those billions of pounds wouldn't have left the country in the first place. Politics is not about pleasing all of the people all of the time, but about being pragmatic, and thinking of the country's future. Sound-bites, spin-doctors and election speeches are not about the country's future. They are about the political party itself.

 

[HovaGirl]

The amount of pointless non jobs created by the last labour government was astonishing, local government , much like central government is staffed by people very adept at preserving budget allocations and justifying expenditure to support this.

Brown created so many non-jobs in local Government and raised the numbers on benefits to such an extent, that more than 50% of the British population is dependent on the State for their income. And that income, comes from the taxes paid by the other 50%, and the local Government employees. To pay for all these state and council employees, the tax bill for earners and taxpayers just isn't high enough. The Tories don't want to over-raise taxes (because then people leave the country and pay their taxes in another country instead), so they want to cut the Government bill for State employees, and that means cutting their numbers. But of course, the Tories want the cuts to come from the non-job self-serving middle management (Lesbian Giraffe Outreach Worker and all those other silly jobs advertised in the Guardian).

 

[HovaGirl]

There really does seem to be a dearth of talent across all of our "political class", its worrying to be frank.

Because the type of person who makes a politician is the kind of person who takes chances in life. And that is just the kind of person the newspapers like to pull to pieces. Hence, we have whitewashed politicians with no guts, because those with guts too often have a juicy story they'd rather not tell.

 

[Simster]

They employ them off the books because that way, they can pay less than the minimum wage. If there was no minimum wage, profit-seeking employers wouldn't have to resort to paying off the books. They could pay low wages on the books. (OK, so low wages, by itself, is not a good thing, but at least it keeps the jobs home-grown and reduces immigration.)

Anyone who can't afford to pay £6.75 an hour to a grown adult has no business employing people in the first place. These are not the sort of jobs that are the backbone of a developed economy.

 

[HovaGirl]

What I'm saying is, the problem is illegals and eastern europeans, if there were no illegals or eastern europeans willing to work off the books then whats the problem witha minimum wage? if you cant stay in business paying someone £15,000 a year for a 40 hour week, then perhaps you shouldn't be in business.

Well, indeed, but there are many Del-Boy chancers out there who would squeeze a pip from a lemon to pay a wage.

 

[Simster]

Because the type of person who makes a politician is the kind of person who takes chances in life. And that is just the kind of person the newspapers like to pull to pieces. Hence, we have whitewashed politicians with no guts, because those with guts too often have a juicy story they'd rather not tell.

I think it's more a case that you simply have to be squeaky clean to get on, risk takers or otherwise. Seriously, why should anyone give a monkeys about someone's private life if they are delivering good government? Yet people obviously do.

The only exception to that is if you are standing on a platform of family values whilst screwing members of your cabinet, such as those Tory hypocrites, Major and Currie.

 

[HovaGirl]

The minimum wage, despite what HovaGirl has said has not lost millions of jobs to Eastern Europeans - this is complete tosh I'm afraid. The "backhanders" would still exist irrespective of the introduction of the minimum wage only it would be legal to do it.

How do you work that one out?

 

[HovaGirl]

Anyone who can't afford to pay £6.75 an hour to a grown adult has no business employing people in the first place. These are not the sort of jobs that are the backbone of a developed economy.

Ours used to be a developed economy, but like much of the Western World, it is struggling to keep up with itself. Britain is slowly descending into a third-world economy. Slowly, I said.

 

[Simster]

How do you work that one out?

To escape paying employer's NI? Or are you saying that under the Tories in the late 90s before the minimum wage was introduced, there was literally NOBODY being paid off the books?