[Albion] Dunk - straight red?

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I agree with this also. The replays on my large TV were from too great a distance and blurry. Taylor had the same distant shot to review on a small monitor.

Hinshelwood may well have fouled him, but it's not clear he did. It's equally possible that the striker wrapped his arm around Hinshelwood and took an opportunistic tumble in the way penalty-seekers do.

So, with it not being definitive, I'm not sure how the penalty could be given retrospectively.

It was a shocking decision. So inconclusive it should never been seen as clear and obvious.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Yawn..............................................................

Oh dear. I’m devastated.

 

[Wardy's twin]

It's Gerry Cottle's Circus (clown section)

I know but I wondered who was responsible for it. I assume the FA are if so they are delivering an inferior product.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Is it not OK to at least question what we are seeing? Its not as if its a direct accusation of corruption, but suggesting it as one of several possibilities in the abstract shouldn't be libellous? Its not as if referee corruption is some hypothetical, there have been numerous cases around the world. There was the Calciopoli scandal in Italy during 2004-06 which led to Juventus being stripped of their league title and relegated; there was the German match-fixing scandal at the same time which led to several referees being banned for life, there have been World Cup referees banned for match-fixing and Barcelona have recently been charged with bribing the head of the Spanish referees association.

Whether or not any of us believe this is actually happening in the Premier League, nor know what form this might take, it would be naive to dismiss it out of hand.

Perhaps it would be better that it was phrased better.

After the Spurs game last year I questioned the integrity of officials in the EPL.

It would be good if there is a far more open book with PGMOL. https://www.starlizardintegrity.com/ could help.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

According to the BBC Neal Maupay was given a red card for abusive language to a Ref after a game with Wolves in 2021.

They are also now referring to Dunk's offence as a "Jibe"

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Well at least he will have learned his lesson and it won't happen again.

 

[Seagull58]

So now it’s ‘screaming‘ fcuk off!? It was just ‘shouting’ ‘fcuk off‘ the post I was responding to. ‘Screaming’ suggests some who has completely lost control and I can’t remember the last time I heard a professional football player even shouting ‘fcuk off’ at the top of his voice directly at a ref let alone one who was screaming.

And no, I didn’t say it was ‘fine’ but in the context of foul play, as an OFFINABUS offence, you’d be hard pushed to get even a ‘shout’ of ‘fcuk off’ as a straight red card unless it was directly in the face of a ref and a deliberate refusal to accept his word - if we start applying that swear word as a bar for what words constitute abuse per se, we’d have a lot of players going off the pitch. Rules may be desirable but they also need to be enforceable in a way that doesn’t destroy the game by becoming to draconian.

A warning about using swear words and then a yellow card after that should suffice imo - if that is still ignored then another yellow (or a 2 yellow offences red card ) or a straight red card after that depending on whether you think efforts to get them to check their language is simply falling of deaf ears..

I don’t know what Dunky said on Saturday but I bet it was a darn-sight worse than ‘fcuk off’ when VAR ruled in a pen.

"Bald prick" according to amateur lipreaders. There may have been a "bellend" involved somewhere in the discussion too.

 

[Seagull58]

According to the BBC Neal Maupay was given a red card for abusive language to a Ref after a game with Wolves in 2021.

They are also now referring to Dunk's offence as a "Jibe"

Maupay's was after the final whistle.

 

[Seagull58]

Perhaps it would be better that it was phrased better.

After the Spurs game last year I questioned the integrity of officials in the EPL.

It would be good if there is a far more open book with PGMOL. https://www.starlizardintegrity.com/ could help.

Starlizard Integrity has contracts with La Liga and several other leagues but not the EPL. Maybe another algorithm-driven integrity business is working with the EPL but I suspect not because, well, it's the EPL.

 

[Seagull58]

My daughter picked up a stone on the walk to school this morning and threw it at a lampost to make a noise. I told her off. However, her first response was "but I've seen other parents let their children do it". I told her I didn't care what other parents said and it wasn't the right thing to do. She then called me corrupt and told me Alan Smith or Lee Cattermole was the last child to be told off for throwing a stone at that lampost, which I thought was an amazing reference seeing as she's five.

and if her first response was" I have done this many times before when walking to school with and you have never told me off, so why are you only doing it this one time? Are you a bald prick in disguise"?

 

[Seagull58]

It looks rules have been tightened.

The point is abusive language has to have zero tolerance where refs are concerned.

We've seen the problem at grassroots level. So the highest level has to set an example. If it doesn't, then there won't be any referees left.

It looks like the rule has been arbitrarily tightened by Taylor on a one-off basis, because it wasn't tightened in the Everton or Villa matches this weekend.. If PGMOL or IFAB is going to change the accepted standard for punishing foul and abusive language (after 15 years of precedence where they ignored it) then, as with their changes to offside and their short-lived crackdown on delaying free-kicks, they should announce it publicly and enforce it rigorously.

 

[American Seagle]

Perhaps it would be better that it was phrased better.

After the Spurs game last year I questioned the integrity of officials in the EPL.

It would be good if there is a far more open book with PGMOL. https://www.starlizardintegrity.com/ could help.

Hopefully it is happening even as a precaution. Given the amount of previous soccer has in terms of match fixing it would be a good idea to do. Just like having a smoke alarm or CO alarm. It doesn't mean the house is on fire, but it gives you an early warning IF something bad happens and you can correct it before it gets too bad. It also acts as a deterrent.

 

[dazzer6666]

Not sure I should be making any comment on what ‘amateur lip readers’ say he said but if true I would think that constitutes personal abusive remarks directed at the ref which is completely unacceptable imo and deserved an instant sending off.

Is this a subjective thing? I happen to think ‘fcuk off!’ is far less offensive than calling someone something that reflects a characteristic of their physical appearance or a private body part - that’s a big ‘NO’ for me but I am a little embarrassed to say in front of any snowflakes that might be hovering around here, ‘oh FCUK!‘ is my go to when something bad happens ( from spilling a cup of coffee to accidentally deleting something on the computer) - ‘Oh fcuk off’ is what I say to mates sometimes in a joking way - I scream ‘FCUK OFF!! ‘ at customer service chatbots that have me going round in circles or when going through endless options to speak to the right department on the phone - I say ‘fcuk’ far too often

(‘Bellend’ doesn’t bother me either)

Think this is it, whatever was said. A non-directed ‘FFS’ as you walk away or similar is very common, but actually directing a personal (abusive) comment at the ref much less so.

I got hit on the ankle by a daft old bint pushing a shopping trolley in the supermarket. It hurt like hell for a few seconds and I let out a ‘f*** !’……she then got all arsey, called her old man over and accused me of swearing at her. I explained I was swearing at the pain….if I’d said what I was thinking (‘watch where you’re going you ******* stupid ****’) then she’d maybe have had a legit complaint.

Dunk appears to have ‘personalised’ his anger……so can’t have too many complaints really.

 

[Seagull58]

Not sure I should be making any comment on what ‘amateur lip readers’ say he said but if true I would think that constitutes personal abusive remarks directed at the ref which is completely unacceptable imo and deserved an instant sending off.

Is this a subjective thing? I happen to think ‘fcuk off!’ is far less offensive than calling someone something that reflects a characteristic of their physical appearance or a private body part - that’s a big ‘NO’ for me but I am a little embarrassed to say in front of any snowflakes that might be hovering around here, ‘oh FCUK!‘ is my go to when something bad happens ( from spilling a cup of coffee to accidentally deleting something on the computer) - ‘Oh fcuk off’ is what I say to mates sometimes in a joking way - I scream ‘FCUK OFF!! ‘ at customer service chatbots that have me going round in circles or when going through endless options to speak to the right department on the phone - I say ‘fcuk’ far too often

(‘Bellend’ doesn’t bother me either)

Most of the discussion on this thread is about the (lack of) consistency. Using foul or abusive language directly to a ref is a red card offence. Fine, no problem. If what Dunk said is foul and abusive language then the red card is justified. Apply the rule consistently. I absolutely refuse to accept that only one player in the EPL has used foul and sbusive language towards a referee during a match in the last 15 years.
IMO, shouting "fcuk off, ref" directly in his face constitutes foul and abusive language and warrants a red card. I'm not sure that shouting "oh fcuk off" in his general direction or into the ether does. It is the opinion of PGMOL and IFAB that matters though. Set the standard and enforce it consistently.

 

[Frankie]

He should just send Taylor and Webb a email apologising and everything will be fine, that's how it seems to work the other way round.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Most of the discussion on this thread is about the (lack of) consistency. Using foul or abusive language directly to a ref is a red card offence. Fine, no problem. If what Dunk said is foul and abusive language then the red card is justified. Apply the rule consistently. I absolutely refuse to accept that only one player in the EPL has used foul and sbusive language towards a referee during a match in the last 15 years.
IMO, shouting "fcuk off, ref" directly in his face constitutes foul and abusive language and warrants a red card. I'm not sure that shouting "oh fcuk off" in his general direction or into the ether does. It is the opinion of PGMOL and IFAB that matters though. Set the standard and enforce it consistently.

I think you're just going to have to accept that there isn't consistency in this one. Cards for dissent and foul and abusive language are completely subjective and context-dependent, and maybe that's just fine. Dunks timing, words, manner of delivery and the match context all conspired against him in Taylors mind in that moment. Its not just the words - everyone is getting hung up on 'swearing being a red card' but there's way more nuance to it than just the words.

More i think about it and the more i read everyone contributions to the thread, the more i have changed my mind from being angered at the inconsistency and the impatience of the ref, to thinking that this is one of the very few cases where a red is deserved for this action.

Dunk isn't some kid, he's an experienced premier league player and captain. With that comes a higher bar of responsibility. It wasn't as if he hadn't been warned first, he'd got a yellow card immediately prior. Probably if he hadn't have booked him first that incident would just have been a yellow. The match situation was tense and BHA players were doing all the gamesmanship around the award of an opposition penalty that we normally hate to see when its United or someone doing it. And there was a controlled calmness about his abuse - it was measured, direct, dismissive, an absolute rejection of the refs authority 'you're just a compete bellend aren't you?'

So i don't think the offence is just the words, it depends on a lot of things and subjectivity comes into play, and that's fine.

 

[Zeberdi]

Dunk appears to have ‘personalised’ his anger……so can’t have too many complaints really.

Yes, exactly my point.

Tbh I don’t think anyone has argued (afaia) that Dunk didn’t deserve a straight red for an OFFINABUS the problem with Taylor imo is, the situation shouldn’t have got to that point in the first place -

Most of the discussion on this thread is about the (lack of) consistency.

Yes

Using foul or abusive language directly to a ref is a red card offence. Fine, no problem. If what Dunk said is foul and abusive language then the red card is justified.

There is a difference between foul language and abusive language. ‘Foul’ language is more related to the actual words per se and the subjective response of the recipient - that’s where the lines can get blurred as what constitutes an OFFINABUS- ‘Abusive’ language, on the other hand (for which Dunk was apparently guilty) is directional and done to intentionally harm the recipient and is often relating to personal characteristics - you can be abusive without using foul language.

I absolutely refuse to accept that only one player in the EPL has used foul and sbusive language towards a referee during a match in the last 15 years.

Well to do so would be a little ridiculous as nearly all of us have pointed out - clearly times have changed

IMO, shouting "fcuk off, ref" directly in his face constitutes foul and abusive language and warrants a red card.

It is foul language but it may not be abusive - it would depend on how it was said and the intention behind the words BUT this is actually not what was said anyway by all accounts so it is a moot point

I'm not sure that shouting "oh fcuk off" in his general direction or into the ether does.

No probably not but it might result in a YC and an IFK - the same if it was between two players

It is the opinion of PGMOL and IFAB that matters though.

No - it is the opinion of the referee that matters - as to whether he deems language is abusive, insulting or offensive and whether he wants to enforce the rules - the OFFINABUS rules are already in place - they are not an ‘opinion’

LAW 12: FOULS AND MISCONDUCT​

IFAB Laws of the Game 2023-24

SENDING-OFF OFFENCE

“using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or action(s) ”

Set the standard and enforce it consistently.

The standard is set in the rules - but clearly it has not been enforced and players have got away with it for years - I can only imagine either Taylor was particularly sensitised to being insulted or Dunk said something pretty shocking. It is unfortunate that Dunk has been made an early example of how the FA have initiated a crackdown this season on criticism of referees although they have been ‘cracking down on it for years’ - this season, perhaps with more fervour?

"Through stronger sanctions, leading innovations and a new three-year refereeing strategy coming soon, we are determined to tackle this issue and build a safer and more inclusive environment for our match officials to have happy and fulfilling long term experiences as referees."

But I would suggest that this is the prima facia reason that this is the first time in over a decade a PL player has been sent off for verbal abuse at a ref rather than any conspiracy theory of match fixing as you keep implying.

Players and manager face stricter punishments for bad behaviour

The football authorities are seeking a 'reset' in how those who play and watch the game conduct themselves, with a series of measures intended to tackle the issue set out.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The elephant in the room is the refs are relaxed about the possibility of their making mistakes, very relaxed indeed, but the same does not apply to mistakes made by players. Two cards in five seconds is petulance by the ref.

However they are the referees so they must be in charge. That's fine. If Dunk crossed a line, so be it.

Just make it look like you give a shit. This criticism applies most to the VAR men. Put the Jaffa cake down, stop looking at grindr on your phone, and ask the tea lady to save the blow job till after the final whistle, you feather-bedded salary-thief ****.

 

[SeagullinExile]

3 game ban now apparently. Twats.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

3 game ban now apparently. Twats.

Can’t see this being reported anywhere at the moment?

FA website is still showing a two game ban at this time as well.

The only way it could be extended is if the FA have charged him with something, possibly related to him getting in the 4th officials face when leaving the pitch, but that wouldn’t have been sorted this quickly. Or the club have made what is deemed to be a frivolous appeal, but I don’t think we’d have done that.

At the moment I can see no reason for them extending his ban.