[Brighton] Dr Beeching 50 years on.

[Weststander]

I think we paradoxically suffer for being first.

I have commuted to London for the best part of 45 years, There are hundreds of routes but they grew from the independent rail building scramble of the 1800s. The villages surrounding London grew into the available spaces to create the greater London splurge.

So there is no room to create high speed lines into London, unless you tunnel (the so called high speed route to St Pancras). The railway system to London is incontrovertibly f***ed. It cannot be fixed.

Ditto roads. I tried driving into London at one time. Madness.

All of this fossilization of transport was obvious to me 40 years ago. Faster trains won't help. As soon as you hit outer London there are hundreds of trains queuing to navigate limited space.

The only fast train link that has added value is the Ashford to St Pancras connection. And that was apparently the largest civil engineering exercise that Europe has ever seen. It won't be repeated elsewhere.

Meanwhile, Beeching was vandalizing branch lines that were not the main source of financial drain, but their removal did 'justify' road building.

And Thatcher hated trains, so any chance of any reversal of decline was suspended during her tenure at the top.

Or any reversal under WIlson, Heath and Callaghan 1964 to 1979?

We went down the US 'route' of the car is king , under red and blue.

 

[Boys 9d]

It was Barbara Castle as Labour Transport Secretary who gave the final approval fr the closure of the line from Shoreham to Horsham via Steyning.

 

[Skuller]

Or any reversal under WIlson, Heath and Callaghan 1964 to 1979?

We went down the US 'route' of the car is king , under red and blue.

The railways attempt to compete with the car was the introduction of “parkway” station (Bristol Parkway, Didcot Parkway etc) with easy access, massive car parks so you could drive to the station and catch a long distance train. The trouble was that once the people got in their cars in the morning they didn’t really want to get out of them, and with the expanding motorway system just drive on to their destinations.

 

[GT49er]

An old work colleague of mine's father was mayor of East Grinstead and told me that Beeching had cut those lines because he didn't want to be seen as showing favouritism.

Beeching was an East Grinstead r esident.

But he made sure East Grinstead kept it's direct rail link to (his office in) London.

 

[Brovion]

It was Barbara Castle as Labour Transport Secretary who gave the final approval fr the closure of the line from Shoreham to Horsham via Steyning.

That's true, and she was Minister for Transport from 1965 to 1968 so she was in charge during a lot of the 'Beeching' cuts.

I put that in quotes as although he was appointed by the Tories and published his 'Reshaping of Britain's Railways' report under them, he'd stopped being Chairman of BR by June 1965. (This was following the Labour election victory of 1964). However neither the new government or the new BR chairman felt the need to reverse the policy, and a lot of the closures took place after he'd returned to ICI. As someone else said cutting the rail network was very much an unofficial bipartisan policy, not a case of Tories for the cars, Labour for the trains.

Anyway, at least the Serpell Report was never implemented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpell_Report

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Lots of good cycle tracks though! As someone said shame some were sold / built on more tricky to go back or use for other transport ideas.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Or any reversal under WIlson, Heath and Callaghan 1964 to 1979?

We went down the US 'route' of the car is king , under red and blue.

People in their cars provide massive revenue to the government. The more the merrier.

 

[Chicken Run]

would be very easy to install this system on many of the old track beds, wether the routes would make money i don’t know

 

[Chicken Run]

Even use some bendy buses on them

 

[Official Old Man]

So why is train travel in Europe so much cheaper than in the UK?

The year before Covid, we travelled 1st Class from Lille to Bordeaux (a distance of 800km/500 miles) for a mere £20 each.

France are years ahead of us regarding building the high speed lines. They also have a lot more space in which to build them.
They've also banned local flights. I've got 2 tickets Paris to Barcelona in October for under £200. Both stations are city centre so no leaving for the airport 3 hours before departure.
Then I've Barca to Madrid, two first class tickets for £50
I admit flying to Paris, simply because the cost of Eurostar is crazy expensive, but then it's half British.

The closure of the Uckfield to Lewes line wasn't a Beeching cut. East Sussex County council decided it was in the way of a new road they wanted to build in Lewes. They were selective with the figures and said that not many people travelled between Lewes and Uckfield but didn't include people going from, say, Brighton to Tunbridge Wells (which that line allowed you to do) or Crowborough.

Lived in Uckfield 25 years and always presumed it was a Beeching cut.

 

[British Bulldog]

I think I read recently that his wife's family had links to a major road building company and they personally made millions out of his road building/rail closure policy....... quell my shock/horror for a Tory MP.

UK railways are a disgrace compared to across the channel.

How do you improve our railway network though?

 

[gazingdown]

Between 1950 and 1970 almost 7000 miles of lines were closed.

Just over 3000miles were closed BEFORE the Beeching report was published.

The report, as I recall when reading about it, was strongly suggesting buses replaced many lines - however neither tories/labour did much in the way of that!

Beeching made the report (some suggestions right, some wrong at the time, some only wrong/right in hindsight) but it was the ministers/govt. that actually make the decision/go-ahead to close routes.

This isn't a Tory/Labour thing, it was just the view of many at the time, for better or worse.

 

[rippleman]

For those interested in the era of steam - particularly in Sussex, this is a great series.

Tracing the Rails - Explore Sussex's Railway History | Tracing the Rails

Join presenter Stephen Cranford on a captivating journey through the rich heritage of the Shoreham to Horsham railway line in this enchanting documentary series.

www.tracingtherails.com

Very detailed but if you love history and steam railways, it's just the ticket.

 

[Comrade Sam]

Traveling around Europe last summer, the services were excellent in France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria and Belgium. The weakest link was Germany, as a German friend had warned me. They were always late, one was cancelled and one broke down and we had to wrestle with everyone to try and get tickets for the next train in the ticket hall.
The USA is a special case. After the war they tried to replicate Hitler's autobahns, for tactical military military purposes. In fact the fly over height was designed to fit an ICBM on a truck underneath. It inadvertently lead to the suburbs and the drive in culture. That then lead to the massive growth in car ownership. This was helped by the near destruction of public transport. The whites only policy for the majority of the new burbs created the ghettoisation of the black community when the economic downturn happened. To this day many in the US perceive urban crime and rioting as black things, but this was due to the fact they could not leave the cities. Strangely the US took much of the rail into public hands as we privatised.
I once had tickets for the train from LA to New Orleans. As it was 24 hours late it was cancelled. So they put me up in a hotel, flew me to Arizona, then to Chicago, put me up in another hotel and finally onto a train to New Orleans.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Traveling around Europe last summer, the services were excellent in France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria and Belgium.

Out of interest, did you travel on any local (i.e. non-TGV) trains in France?
My experience of them suggests about 50% chance of severe delay or cancellation.

 

[Bazzza67]

France are years ahead of us regarding building the high speed lines. They also have a lot more space in which to build them.
They've also banned local flights. I've got 2 tickets Paris to Barcelona in October for under £200. Both stations are city centre so no leaving for the airport 3 hours before departure.
Then I've Barca to Madrid, two first class tickets for £50
I admit flying to Paris, simply because the cost of Eurostar is crazy expensive, but then it's half British.

Lived in Uckfield 25 years and always presumed it was a Beeching cut.

HM Government sold its 40% share in Eurostar nearly 10 years ago...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31721334

 

[Comrade Sam]

Out of interest, did you travel on any local (i.e. non-TGV) trains in France?
My experience of them suggests about 50% chance of severe delay or cancellation.

Not for years.

 

[Official Old Man]

HM Government sold its 40% share in Eurostar nearly 10 years ago...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31721334

Looking at the Barca to Madrid line, there are 4 companies running high speed trains all competing with each other on not only price but service as well. Obviously the London - Brighton line runs at full capacity so adding extra trains is a no no. But imagine 4 companies running trains on that line, fares would be £5 a time or under.
Is the channel tunnel tied up with Eurostar and LeShuttle because if InOui ran their trains on the line the price would certainly fall.

 

[Official Old Man]

Traveling around Europe last summer, the services were excellent in France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria and Belgium. The weakest link was Germany, as a German friend had warned me. They were always late, one was cancelled and one broke down and we had to wrestle with everyone to try and get tickets for the next train in the ticket hall.
The USA is a special case. After the war they tried to replicate Hitler's autobahns, for tactical military military purposes. In fact the fly over height was designed to fit an ICBM on a truck underneath. It inadvertently lead to the suburbs and the drive in culture. That then lead to the massive growth in car ownership. This was helped by the near destruction of public transport. The whites only policy for the majority of the new burbs created the ghettoisation of the black community when the economic downturn happened. To this day many in the US perceive urban crime and rioting as black things, but this was due to the fact they could not leave the cities. Strangely the US took much of the rail into public hands as we privatised.
I once had tickets for the train from LA to New Orleans. As it was 24 hours late it was cancelled. So they put me up in a hotel, flew me to Arizona, then to Chicago, put me up in another hotel and finally onto a train to New Orleans.

The train system in the US is massive BUT they prioritise cargo over people. Any passenger train has to give way to a freight train, and as they take 30 minutes to pass by it puts the passenger train well behind.

 

[zefarelly]

I think I read recently that his wife's family had links to a major road building company and they personally made millions out of his road building/rail closure policy....... quell my shock/horror for a Tory MP.

UK railways are a disgrace compared to across the channel.

This.

The Horsham line from Shoreham was another to go.

we're pretty good at self harm as a country.