Does it make you racist if..................

[Seagull kimchi]

So you think the country should be run like a charity ?? and what on earth are you on about the colonies 200 years ago ?? it bears no relevance whatsoever to the problems we face today, and the people i'm talking about chose to do a little bit more than "retain some of their heritage"

Read it again - I said 'less than altruistic reasons', ie. in the sixties and seventies low paid menial workers were encouraged to come to Britain to do necessary jobs that British people were less happy to do. It wasn't encouraged out of kindness and the desire to 'spread the wealth'.

Why do you think in terms of charity?

Are you assuming most immigrants are abusing the benefit system? More so than the chavvy section of our society?

 

[fork me]

you use a racist word. Interested in people's thoughts

It all depends on the context.

 

[fork me]

Not matter what context a word like ni**er , pa*i is racist...

A word like black for e.g that black bloke i dont see as racist

Is it?

Let's try a random sentence:

Niggas With Attitude were a great band.

Am I now a racist?

 

[fork me]

I often wondered this... but hearing a phone in debate on LBC talk radio several black people called in with an explanation and said that this was the black people trying to RECLAIM a word that has always generally owned and used derogatorily towards black people...

Several black people also called in and found the word offensive even when called it by a black person due to the negative conotations and shackles of negative use thoughout history of this word...

I saw an interview back in the 90s with one of NWA (might have been Ice Cube, can't remember). He made the comment that if you accept a word to describe a black person as being derogatory then you're accepting there's something wrong with being black. It's not something everyone agrees on, obviously, but it IS a valid viewpoint.

Others agree with what you say there. Living abroad, I now have a very multicultural peer group, less than half of my close friends over here are British, being a largely rugby crowd the banter is far from politically correct. Racist terms are used openly, among friends. Is that ACTUALLY racist, or is it banter betwen mates thats no different to any other banter between mates?

Some example:

When F, who's Argentinian, got deselcted from a game and was furious. I shouted over "Oi Fausto, you're not getting the f***ing Falklands back either"
A is Italian, whenever he walks into a pub we all do the Mussolini salute.
G is French, whever we lose a game we accuse him of surrendering.
S is from Cameroon, he told me a girl was looking at him in the bar, I said "No, there's a dark wall behind you, she's just confused, all she can see is teeth and eyes". He responded by saying he's got a job on the Colgate adverts starting next week.

Racist or banter? Bear in mind these are all good mates of mine.

 

[fork me]

So true - I've been discriminated against because I'm not a local (ie. charged a fraction more for services etc.) but in 7 years in Asia I've never been blamed or 'called out' derogatorily on the basis of skin colour/heritage.

Don't get it much over here, but some of the older Cypriots who remember the days when Cyprus was British ruled can try and give you some grief. I sometimes respond if I'm drunk enough.

One conversation from a year or so ago:

"You british did NOTHING for Cyprus when you were here"
"To be fair, we did build the hospitals"
"Yeah, Ok"
"..and the schools"

several minutes later:

"But apart from the hosptals, schools, roads, water supply, electricity, phone lines, post office and ports the British did nothing for Cyprus"

Life of Brian anyone?

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

I saw an interview back in the 90s with one of NWA (might have been Ice Cube, can't remember). He made the comment that if you accept a word to describe a black person as being derogatory then you're accepting there's something wrong with being black. It's not something everyone agrees on, obviously, but it IS a valid viewpoint.

Others agree with what you say there. Living abroad, I now have a very multicultural peer group, less than half of my close friends over here are British, being a largely rugby crowd the banter is far from politically correct. Racist terms are used openly, among friends. Is that ACTUALLY racist, or is it banter betwen mates thats no different to any other banter between mates?

Some example:

When Fausto, who's Argentinian, got deselcted from a game and was furious. I shouted over "Oi Fausto, you're not getting the f***ing Falklands back either"
Antonio is Italian, whenever he walks into a pub we all do the Mussolini salute.
Gregoire is French, whever we lose a game we accuse him of surrendering.
Stevie is from Cameroon, he told me a girl was looking at him in the bar, I said "No, there's a dark wall behind you, she's just confused, all she can see is teeth and eyes". He responded by saying he's got a job on the Colgate adverts starting next week.

Racist or banter? Bear in mind these are all good mates of mine.

If you're looking for a definition of the words and actions you are using then then what you are partaking in is racist banter. I.e. you are engaging in banter based upon their race or nationality.

But like in every situation context is key. It's clearly not the same as you going into an Italian restaurant and giving a fascist salute to all the waiters and there is no intention on what you say to seriously offend the person or imply that they are in some way inferior to you because they are italian, French etc.

One question though. Is this a two way thing. Do the non Brits engage in the same sort of banter with the Brits? Eg rosbifs etc

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

I saw an interview back in the 90s with one of NWA (might have been Ice Cube, can't remember). He made the comment that if you accept a word to describe a black person as being derogatory then you're accepting there's something wrong with being black. It's not something everyone agrees on, obviously, but it IS a valid viewpoint.

Others agree with what you say there. Living abroad, I now have a very multicultural peer group, less than half of my close friends over here are British, being a largely rugby crowd the banter is far from politically correct. Racist terms are used openly, among friends. Is that ACTUALLY racist, or is it banter betwen mates thats no different to any other banter between mates?

Some example:

When F, who's Argentinian, got deselcted from a game and was furious. I shouted over "Oi Fausto, you're not getting the f***ing Falklands back either"
A is Italian, whenever he walks into a pub we all do the Mussolini salute.
G is French, whever we lose a game we accuse him of surrendering.
S is from Cameroon, he told me a girl was looking at him in the bar, I said "No, there's a dark wall behind you, she's just confused, all she can see is teeth and eyes". He responded by saying he's got a job on the Colgate adverts starting next week.

Racist or banter? Bear in mind these are all good mates of mine.

Thank you for bringing the thread back on topic!

I'm definitely sympathetic to why someone might wish to reclaim certain words. 'Negro', '******' and 'coloured' were all once commonly accepted as descriptive terms. It is when people start to twist the meaning by implying membership of a group is somehow shameful, e.g. 'you effing ******', that the term takes on a negative meaning. If it is done enough times, the term becomes contaminated because it is thought of mainly as a pejorative term rather than a descriptive/neutral term. It's a sign of a lack of power to keep on having to say, 'OK, we don't want to be called that any more, we now want to be called this until its meaning also gets contaminated by the racists.' By contrast, generally, 'white' people never have to reinvent the descriptive label for themselves. The danger, though, is that someone who has heard the N word used in a negative way has those memories triggered even though the user of the term is trying to bring it back to being a descriptive, or even positive, term. I think that's why in the reclaiming, '******'s spelling has been changed to 'nigga', to give a clue that it's the reclaimed version.

As for what you say about your peer group, I would say that there is a bigger thing at play than to merely consider whether a term is racist or not. And that's to do with whether you are being responsible for how your words are landing with someone else, and you clearly are. You have to have a deep enough friendship to have a level of certainty that, say, doing a Mussolini salute to your Italian friend, will land in a way where that friend knows you are not hostile to them. And because it calls you back to being reminded that you have a deep enough friendship, it serves, not to be divisive, but to actually furthering the bonds of friendship.

 

[NMH]

The main theme of this thread has focused on the question of whether you use racist terms, and how that could be perceived by others.
Picking out various terminologies doesn't really get to the point of what makes you a racist, what you know about yourself is what decides whether you are a racist.

Even if you make NO racially sensitive comments in your life - if you harbour any less regard for your fellow man or woman due to their skin colour, THAT is what makes you racist.

Nobody needs the endorsement or condemnation of another person to decide it for you.

 

[BadFish]

The main theme of this thread has focused on the question of whether you use racist terms, and how that could be perceived by others.
Picking out various terminologies doesn't really get to the point of what makes you a racist, what you know about yourself is what decides whether you are a racist.

Even if you make NO racially sensitive comments in your life - if you harbour any less regard for your fellow man or woman due to their skin colour, THAT is what makes you racist.

Nobody needs the endorsement or condemnation of another person to decide it for you.

I agree. It is not so much about what you say, more about the context you say it in and the meaning behind it. However if you use words that are considered racist in an unknown context or when others are unaware of any other meaning then you will be percieved as racist.

I used to have what has been described as racist banter with a black friend of mine on a regular basis. One night in the escape after a couple too many i saw him and continued the banter. The small group of other black lads were visibly riled and getting angry until my mate told them i was a mate and it was all good. I learnt a lesson that night.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk

 

[SK1NT]

Is it?

Let's try a random sentence:

Niggas With Attitude were a great band.

Am I now a racist?

Hardly the same context as.... f*** off you ******... is it?

 

[fork me]

One question though. Is this a two way thing. Do the non Brits engage in the same sort of banter with the Brits? Eg rosbifs etc

Oh yeah, totally 2 way. Because there's marginally more Brits, there tends to be regional banter towards Brits from non Brits as well, Scouse gets accused of every theft, even if there isn't one. Started by some Northerners in the group I normally get accused of being "virtually French"

 

[fork me]

Hardly the same context as.... f*** off you ******... is it?

Aah, good, so you agree that the context is what matters then, you see what you said (and what I replied to) was:

"Not matter what context a word like ni**er , pa*i is racist..."

I was merely pointing out a context where it isn't.

HTH

 

[fork me]

Thank you for bringing the thread back on topic!

I'm definitely sympathetic to why someone might wish to reclaim certain words. 'Negro', '******' and 'coloured' were all once commonly accepted as descriptive terms. It is when people start to twist the meaning by implying membership of a group is somehow shameful, e.g. 'you effing ******', that the term takes on a negative meaning. If it is done enough times, the term becomes contaminated because it is thought of mainly as a pejorative term rather than a descriptive/neutral term. It's a sign of a lack of power to keep on having to say, 'OK, we don't want to be called that any more, we now want to be called this until its meaning also gets contaminated by the racists.' By contrast, generally, 'white' people never have to reinvent the descriptive label for themselves. The danger, though, is that someone who has heard the N word used in a negative way has those memories triggered even though the user of the term is trying to bring it back to being a descriptive, or even positive, term. I think that's why in the reclaiming, '******'s spelling has been changed to 'nigga', to give a clue that it's the reclaimed version.

The closest thing I can see to white's having to do it, is the efforts by some left wing groups to reclaim the George Cross and Union flag from racist right wingers who had almost succeeded in appropriating it for their own use.

As for what you say about your peer group, I would say that there is a bigger thing at play than to merely consider whether a term is racist or not. And that's to do with whether you are being responsible for how your words are landing with someone else, and you clearly are. You have to have a deep enough friendship to have a level of certainty that, say, doing a Mussolini salute to your Italian friend, will land in a way where that friend knows you are not hostile to them. And because it calls you back to being reminded that you have a deep enough friendship, it serves, not to be divisive, but to actually furthering the bonds of friendship.

Agree totally.

 

[W.C.]

Some example:

When F, who's Argentinian, got deselcted from a game and was furious. I shouted over "Oi Fausto, you're not getting the f***ing Falklands back either"
A is Italian, whenever he walks into a pub we all do the Mussolini salute.
G is French, whever we lose a game we accuse him of surrendering.
S is from Cameroon, he told me a girl was looking at him in the bar, I said "No, there's a dark wall behind you, she's just confused, all she can see is teeth and eyes". He responded by saying he's got a job on the Colgate adverts starting next week.

Racist or banter? Bear in mind these are all good mates of mine.

Racist or banter? Nah, just shit rugger bugger humour

 

[SK1NT]

Aah, good, so you agree that the context is what matters then, you see what you said (and what I replied to) was:

"Not matter what context a word like ni**er , pa*i is racist..."

I was merely pointing out a context where it isn't.

HTH

Ok i see where you are going... However we trying to assign one rule to two different words....

The word ****** depends on the context the word is used in HOWEVER i have never heard the word paki used in any other way than racist...

 

[daveinprague]

Call a black man in South London ******.....he let you know pretty quickly whether he considers it racist or not.
I know plenty of Asian people who would also let you know very quickly whether they consider being called a Paki is racist or not

Both words have been used for decades to insult people of black or asian decent, and I think its pretty hilarious that theres white people on here telling the world, the words are not racist.........

Dont ask white people ...ask black and asian people....

The one person who said he was of asian decent was told he was 'wrong'....go figure.

 

[BadFish]

Call a black man in South London ******.....he let you know pretty quickly whether he considers it racist or not.
I know plenty of Asian people who would also let you know very quickly whether they consider being called a Paki is racist or not

Both words have been used for decades to insult people of black or asian decent, and I think its pretty hilarious that theres white people on here telling the world, the words are not racist.........

Dont ask white people ...ask black and asian people....

The one person who said he was of asian decent was told he was 'wrong'....go figure.

That is just reverse racism......Asians can be wrong too.

 

[fork me]

Ok i see where you are going... However we trying to assign one rule to two different words....

The word ****** depends on the context the word is used in HOWEVER i have never heard the word paki used in any other way than racist...

I think both do. Racists use the terms to be deliberately offensive and then make silly claims that they're just words and it isn't racist, this the ridiculous "it's just a shorter word for Pakistani" nonsense. But again context is important, and again between friends or people that kn ow each other well enough to know they're not offended it isn't. I'll give you a personal example, there's a corner shop opposite the law courts in Edward Street. The owner is Indian, I don't actually know his real name despite using the shop nearly every day on the way home from work for several years when I lived in Steine Street (the bloke who gave me a lift back from Eastbourne dropped me there and I walked home through the supermarket car park). The reason I don't know his real name is he introduced himself to me as Paki Pete. A lot of his customers come from the lower end of the gene pool (repeat offenders in and out of the court for example!) and he's called Paki Pete by all of them but he doesn't see it as offensive. This is, I believe a good example (like NWA but on a tiny scale) of a word being reclaimed. I'm sure that a lot of the people initially calling him it WERE being racist, but he's taken it back as his own and by using it himself it now has no effect as an insult because people who respect him call him it as well.

Again, context is important. Is it racist for ME, for example, to call him Paki Pete? It the only name I know him by because it's how he introduced himself to me.