Do you observe a minute's silence for the 1 million Rwandans murdered in 1993-94?

[London Irish]

to be honest it makes me sad and upset with people like you who have viewpoints like that. perhaps it would suit you that we just forgot about them

And there's me thinking OTLW has explained his views pretty well, that he is not belittling the sacrifice of any soldiers, merely the double standards of remembering some fallen solidiers and forgetting quickly about the deaths of many others.

Why should a discussion like this make you "sad and upset" - we are reasonable people trying to discuss a complex issue as best we can? Freedom gives us that right, no?

The problem of not asking difficult questions is you get some of the inaccurate stuff written in this thread that the First World War was all about defending freedom and the solidiers on the Somme died to defend that.

The soldier on the Somme was sent to a futile death by callous generals who cared little about sending hundreds of thousands of men on to machine gun fire. The Germans were never in any position to invade England given the nature of warfare at that time, defences could not be breached by land offensives and air warfare was not advanced enough. Most British soldiers died in WW1 because Britain did not value their lives enough. If we do so today, fine, but probably 90 years too late, sadly.

 

[Juan Albion]

And there's me thinking OTLW has explained his views pretty well, that he is not belittling the sacrifice of any soldiers, merely the double standards of remembering some fallen solidiers and forgetting quickly about the deaths of many others.

Because it is using an important occasion to make a political point. I would agree with OTLW in his views on world peace and justice issues. However, labelling Remembrance Day (and presumably those of us who observed it) as hypocritical is counterproductive and misplaced politicking.

 

[Brighton Breezy]

Freedom gives us that right, no?

Yes is does.

The freedom that was protected by thousands of honest and brave soldiers who fought, not because they were forced by some sinister higher power, but because they felt in their hearts it was the right thing to do in order to provide a better life for millions of people they had never met, both in Europe and the future.

Show some bloody respect.

 

[London Irish]

Because it is using an important occasion to make a political point. I would agree with OTLW in his views on world peace and justice issues. However, labelling Remembrance Day (and presumably those of us who observed it) as hypocritical is counterproductive and misplaced politicking.

Reading that, I was left with the impression that OTLW had charged into a remembrance day ceremony and had pissed on a few graves in an artful fashion to spell out the word peace.

What he did was express some thoughtful and nuanced opinions on a difficult subject on a football messageboard, and people like you should not be seeking to silence him. If you disagree with him, that's fine, but let's have the discussion. Some "freedom" that is you are defending.

And making up stuff like he called you hypocrites for observing Remembrance Sunday is not going to advance that discussion much.

 

[London Irish]

Show some bloody respect.

A cheap shot, but alas becoming typical from you Richie.

 

[LEWES CLIFF]

London Irish,whatever youre views when they stamp all over the graves of young men and emotions of us that have lost those in war keep them to yourself.Better still thank those that died so you can have youre abhorent opinion.

 

[Brighton Breezy]

Not as cheap a shot as pretending that you know what every british soldier in history felt about going to war.

You patronise many ex serviceman by saying that they were somehow forced to go to war or pressured by people at home to fight.

The majority did so because they believed it to be right.

I do not mind you being anti war. That is fine and I am glad there are people who have different ideas about conflict. That is central to any democracy.

But dont act like you can speak for past generations and act like you are pitying our fallen troops because they were forced into fighting.

 

[On the Left Wing]

I am all for A remembrance day for people killed in wars: soldiers, sailors, airmen, civilians, children, concentration camp victims etc etc

What I object to is a state conspired Remembrance Day, which in my opinion assuages Government guilt at starting wars and sending people to their deaths and transpires to make anyone feel guilty who does not buy a poppy or support the event.

I have known many heroes in my life - at least three of them died of cancer and one of MS - and I will remember them for their heroism. I will also remember those who have died as a result of war, whether they be British, German, Rwandan or Iraqi.

I respect others' opinions but I don't try to ram mine down others throats as gospel or bully them into feeling inhuman for not holding them.

Anything else I have already posted on this thread.

 

[B.M.F]

This is all getting blown out of proportion people. All OTLW was saying is that he would like to spare a thought for all people who have suffered during times of war not just our own.

No if's but's etc. that was what OTLW said and I for one agree with him.
In times of conflict people should stand together and remember. without this memory their lives would have been wasted for nothing

 

[On the Left Wing]

Thanks bha.fatboy, that is exactly the point ...

I am NOT a patriot but I AM a human being (well almost!)

 

[London Irish]

Not as cheap a shot as pretending that you know what every british soldier in history felt about going to war.

What ARE you on about? Where did I say that? Caricaturing like this just a waste of everyone's time.

But I guess if I've drawn a few of the cheap shot artists away from OTLW, I'm happy enough.

 

[On the Left Wing]

What ARE you on about? Where did I say that? Caricaturing like this just a waste of everyone's time.

But I guess if I've drawn a few of the cheap shot artists away from OTLW, I'm happy enough.

 

[towbarball]

WW1 started because of family tensions and arguements between Queen Victorias extended family.

 

[B.M.F]

WW1 started because of family tensions and arguements between Queen Victorias extended family.

Are you saying that WW3 will start because of tension on here between London Irish and Somerset

 

[Dandyman]

The IRA by 1939 was pitifully small outfit. It tried a few bombings at the outset of the war but these were relatively few and far between and this campaign petered out quite early. The Fianna Fail government of the time (made up of a lot of ex-IRA men) actually boasted that it had killed the IRA stone dead.

The IRA never really emerged as a half-serious military threat again until its "Border" campaign in the late-1950s, which was another fiasco.

So I don't know who led you to believe that IRA activity was widespread during WW2, but most historians would not back that up.

The IRA volunteers would probably have numbered in their hundreds. Compare that to this:

"Almost 150,000 Irish soldiers fought in the First World War; 49,000 died. More than 60,000 Irishmen - more than from loyal Ulster - also saw action in the Second World War; like their compatriots in the Great War, all were volunteers."

Taken from this interesting article that humanises the subject and brings it up to date with the death of an Irish-born British Army soldier at Basra:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/19/wirq619.xml

The IRA campaign began in January 1939 and continued until February 1940. The worst outrage was in Coventry on 25 August 1939 when a bomb killed 5 innocent people.

In some ways even more offensive is the fact that the Irish leader De Valera signed the condolence book at the German embassy when Hitler committed suicide.

 

[somerset]

But I guess if I've drawn a few of the cheap shot artists away from OTLW, I'm happy enough.

What a foookin' martyr you are................ pretentious little man.

 

[London Irish]

The IRA campaign began in January 1939 and continued until February 1940. The worst outrage was in Coventry on 25 August 1939 when a bomb killed 5 innocent people.

In some ways even more offensive is the fact that the Irish leader De Valera signed the condolence book at the German embassy when Hitler committed suicide.

Both those things are true. It is also the case that De Velera frequently secretly breached neutrality to help the Allies.

The planning of D-Day, for example, was assisted by weather information supplied by the Irish government. Also, with combatants captured on Irish territory, the German airmen were always interned, but Allied airmen invariably allowed to "escape" over into Ulster.

Irish neutrality can only be understood by looking at the political realities of the time.

If De Velera had openly joined a military alliance with Britain, Ireland would have errupted into civil war, and the IRA would have been strengthened a thousand-fold.

Churchill famously blasted De Velera for neutrality, but actually many diplomats on the Allied side during the war understood the tinder-box situation in Ireland and were relaxed about Irish neutrality. The last thing they wanted was for Ireland to collapse into a bloody mess, which would have made it ripe for a German invasion which Britain would have been powerless to stop.

 

[Yorkie]

What has remembering the dead of our wars got to do with two tribes in Rwanda trying to wipe each other out? A civil war between Hutu and Tutsi is completely internal.

 

[Juan Albion]

Reading that, I was left with the impression that OTLW had charged into a remembrance day ceremony and had pissed on a few graves in an artful fashion to spell out the word peace.

What he did was express some thoughtful and nuanced opinions on a difficult subject on a football messageboard, and people like you should not be seeking to silence him. If you disagree with him, that's fine, but let's have the discussion. Some "freedom" that is you are defending.

And making up stuff like he called you hypocrites for observing Remembrance Sunday is not going to advance that discussion much.

It really is a shame you don't read the posts more carefully, London Irish, before spouting forth. I had already said in an earlier response that the OTLW was completely entitled to voice his opinions. But I guess you didn't read that.

For you benefit I'll quote what I said: "you may keep your misplaced politicking if it makes you feel happy; after all, they died for your freedom of speech as much as anyone else's."

And just as he is free to express his thoughts, I am free to disagree with him, whether you like it or not. The only one on here who seems to be trying to curtail that freedom is you as far as I can see. You seem to think we shouldn't be disagreeing with him. Sorry, must disappoint you there.

Making up the hypocritical comment? But OTLW said "I find 11 November really hypocritical" in the very first post of this thread. Well, I think it is perfectly accurate to say that that must apply to those who observe Nov 11. How can an event be hypocritical but not those who are taking part in, promoting and supporting the event as we are? If he doesn't mean that those taking part in Nov 11th aren't being hypocritical, what's to stop him joining in?

 

[chip]

I think what I find offensive in OTLWs view is that he overlooks that this is about ALL the war dead who faught and served in other ways for their belief in our way of life. I can't judge what went through my grandfathers or fathers mind when they went to war. The former was gassed and held a prossoner of war - many of his comrades were not so lucky. My wifes grandfather was an objector and so ended up being a fireman in Portsmouth. We remember thoose brave people as much as the sepoy or gurkah of Polish airman. Note just how many poppies the RBL dropped, not the state, who do not organised rememberance day.

So OTLW feels guilty about mans inhumanity to man. Lots of people on this board doubtless do their bit to make the world a better place - sponsor children, help refugees or raise money to send cows to Africa. They value those peoples lives as well but want respect when they respect those who fell for us (regardless or race, colour, religion, disability or sexual orientation) whether in a trench, a derrigable or a fire watcher. I also doesn't mean that they can't see war as futile on an individual level. My young children will accompany me to the village memorial and, in time, hopefuly be grateful for what their forebares did for them. They will probably be upsett by many events yet to come as well.

Finally, the RBL does more for ex-servivemen and women than any government has ever done. Their benevolence is something to apsire to not mock.