Do you observe a minute's silence for the 1 million Rwandans murdered in 1993-94?

[London Irish]

The Irish Free State ceased to exist in 1937, LI. Only the UK refused to recognise it until the Republic of Ireland act in 1948.

We even dropped "Saorstat Eireann" from our coins in 1938...

That's quite right - thanks.

 

[Cian]

The IRA by 1939 was pitifully small outfit. It tried a few bombings at the outset of the war but these were relatively few and far between and this campaign petered out quite early. The Fianna Fail government of the time (made up of a lot of ex-IRA men) actually boasted that it had killed the IRA stone dead.

The IRA never really emerged as a half-serious military threat again until its "Border" campaign in the late-1950s, which was another fiasco.

So I don't know who led you to believe that IRA activity was widespread during WW2, but most historians would not back that up.

The IRA volunteers would probably have numbered in their hundreds. Compare that to this:

"Almost 150,000 Irish soldiers fought in the First World War; 49,000 died. More than 60,000 Irishmen - more than from loyal Ulster - also saw action in the Second World War; like their compatriots in the Great War, all were volunteers."

Taken from this interesting article that humanises the subject and brings it up to date with the death of an Irish-born British Army soldier at Basra:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/19/wirq619.xml

Well put. Was going to try to explain about how the IRA didn't really come back into existance until the 1960's, but was too tired to think of what to say....

 

[Richard Whiteley]

Of course he did..... he just likes to posture....

You don't half like to jump in their too!

 

[Juan Albion]

Sorry guys ... just felt moved to post this thread as I find 11 November really hypocritical.

The masters of war have never changed ... and as Owen said: "the poetry is in the pity"

Sad indeed. But I think you have completely missed the point of 11/11.

 

[Man of Harveys]

I sort-of agree with OTLW. I just think that there's very little about the Remembrance ceremonies which goes about taking active measure to prevent this sort of this from happening again. I'll take Yorkie's point on board about it helping out old soldiers etc. - (you'd have to have a heart of stone to begrudge that)

I just wish that the rather mawkish acts of remembrance were balanced out by some active ceremonies of some kind to promote international understanding, breaking down of stereotypes etc. Because, IMHO, THAT's the kind of thing that prevents wars and the attendance bullshit nationalism that causes them, as well remembering the sadness of healthy young people dying in their thousands.

 

[caz99]

Sorry guys ... just felt moved to post this thread as I find 11 November really hypocritical.

The masters of war have never changed ... and as Owen said: "the poetry is in the pity"

i dont agree with OTLW. there is a lot that comes out of these things esp remembrance day. we have not had a world war since for a start. yes everyone harps on about USA and the middle east but there has been no out and out world war since thousands of men lost their lives.

i find the atrocities occuring all over the world just as upsetting and disturbing however i dont think in some respects they fit on the same scale as the world wars. my grandad fought for me to have a voice and safe and democratic country to live in, i for one will therefore always be proud that i march on poppy day and pay my respects.

its very easy for us all to sit here and criticise when none of us have experienced first hand what a lot of these young men had to witness first hand, when none of us would freely admit to getting up off our backsides if need be.

i dont really understand how it is hypocritical honouring and remembering your own war dead. yes it is terrible what is occuring all over the world esp in africa and south africa. i therefore hope that next time you stuff something in your mouth you stop and think about all the starving children in sudan. i suspect you dont.

 

[On the Left Wing]

At the risk of ramming my head further up my own arse:

IMHO the hypocrisy is in the STATE (indeed the nation) sanctioning a national remembrance for the soldiers, sailors and airmen which the state sent to their own death - and continues to do so (Black Watch in Iraq springs to mind).

To me it is almost like Pontius Pilate washing his hands - it helps assuage Governments or their collective guilt.

The hyprocrisy lies on the other side of the coin in that the STATE does not sanction national remembrance of for instance those who die from cancer or heart disease, or the miners who died in pit disasters, or the Iraqi women and children killed by US/British sanctions or bombings etc etc.

To illustrate: I remember some years ago a colleague at The Scotsman going out to interview the chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police. My colleague was wearing a red ribbon for Aids awareness day. The Editor made him remove the ribbon saying: "You aren't going to interview a hairy-arsed top cop wearing that thing .... now if it had been a poppy it would have been different."

That sorts of sums up the state attitude to poppies and remembrance day.

This is nothng about being left wing, this to me is about being anti-militaristic and a pacifist.


Head now firmly up own arse!

 

[caz99]

At the risk of ramming my head further up my own arse:

IMHO the hypocrisy is in the STATE (indeed the nation) sanctioning a national remembrance for the soldiers, sailors and airmen which the state sent to their own death - and continues to do so (Black Watch in Iraq springs to mind).

To me it is almost like Pontius Pilate washing his hands - it helps assuage Governments or their collective guilt.

The hyprocrisy lies on the other side of the coin in that the STATE does not sanction national remembrance of for instance those who die from cancer or heart disease, or the miners who died in pit disasters, or the Iraqi women and children killed by US/British sanctions or bombings etc etc.

To illustrate: I remember some years ago a colleague at The Scotsman going out to interview the chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police. My colleague was wearing a red ribbon for Aids awareness day. The Editor made him remove the ribbon saying: "You aren't going to interview a hairy-arsed top cop wearing that thing .... now if it had been a poppy it would have been different."

That sorts of sums up the state attitude to poppies and remembrance day.

This is nothng about being left wing, this to me is about being anti-militaristic and a pacifist.


Head now firmly up own arse!

i dont think thats so much the case now. as we have national aids day and breastcancer days etc.

i still dont see it really to be honest with you i understand about the innocent people being sent to war, but if it wasnt for the world wars and our government at the time we could be sitting in a very different place.

 

[looney]

I hope I don't do that - it's not my intention.

I have always believed that no man (or woman) has a right to take any other life. And when that random taking of life is done from behind a desk it multiplies the sin a thousand fold.

So you oppose abortion after all it is a lifeform.

I also feel - and perhaps it my years in journalism that has done this - that we in the "white" English-speaking western world have one set of moral standards for life and death for "our own kin and kind" and a totally ambivalent dismissal if that death is of "the enemy" or the person happens to be Rwandan, Cambodian, Bengali or whatever!!

""
feel?
"white English speaking western world"

You saying the French are not chauvanistic?

I would respect you more if you were honest about your reverse RACIST veiws rather than dress them up in fancy language and hide behind "prehaps its my years in journalism" , do explain?

Tell me which death is worse - a starving Ethiopian mother who hasjust given her last bowl of rice to her dying child or an 18 year old lad from the English shires shot dead by a German bullet on the Somme .... there is no answer because the question begs too many answers!!!

The 18 year olf from the English Shires(Another interesting choice) is worse because without his sacrifice you wouldn't be able to spout such crap.

But that is my own personal view and I don't intend to brow beat anyone else to share it


Oh for f*** sake who are you trying to kid? "Thats my own personal veiw". What you have posted is standard leftist Moral relatavistic dogma, With the typical Cosmopolitan/white guilt thrown in, Shires lad? Ha.

 

[alan partridge]

Still smarting over that time OTLW owned you big time Loonster?

 

[On the Left Wing]

So you oppose abortion after all it is a lifeform.

I also feel - and perhaps it my years in journalism that has done this - that we in the "white" English-speaking western world have one set of moral standards for life and death for "our own kin and kind" and a totally ambivalent dismissal if that death is of "the enemy" or the person happens to be Rwandan, Cambodian, Bengali or whatever!!

""
feel?
"white English speaking western world"

You saying the French are not chauvanistic?

I would respect you more if you were honest about your reverse RACIST veiws rather than dress them up in fancy language and hide behind "prehaps its my years in journalism" , do explain?

Tell me which death is worse - a starving Ethiopian mother who hasjust given her last bowl of rice to her dying child or an 18 year old lad from the English shires shot dead by a German bullet on the Somme .... there is no answer because the question begs too many answers!!!

The 18 year olf from the English Shires(Another interesting choice) is worse because without his sacrifice you wouldn't be able to spout such crap.

But that is my own personal view and I don't intend to brow beat anyone else to share it


Oh for f*** sake who are you trying to kid? "Thats my own personal veiw". What you have posted is standard leftist Moral relatavistic dogma, With the typical Cosmopolitan/white guilt thrown in, Shires lad? Ha.

Not even going to respond to any of this except to clarify: YES I do oppose abortion - actually had to make that decision once and together we chose life .... so glad we did!

 

[looney]

Maybe OTLW needs too look up Patriotism in the Dictionary as its obvious he doesn't have a clue.


This would be telling............


Would LI or OTLW let me know as a white Hetrosexual English Man how I should recognise my identity or Express it?

 

[looney]

Not even going to respond to any of this

Obviously.

 

[Juan Albion]

At the risk of ramming my head further up my own arse:

IMHO the hypocrisy is in the STATE (indeed the nation) sanctioning a national remembrance for the soldiers, sailors and airmen which the state sent to their own death - and continues to do so (Black Watch in Iraq springs to mind).

Many of those who fought in WW1 were volunteers. (So to are the Black Watch, as professional soldiers). The fact that so many volunteered for the trenches, knowing the risk) is one of the things that I remember. They volunteered to die for you and me so that we might be free. I'm sorry you find that hard to be grateful for - but you may keep your misplaced politicking if it makes you feel happy; after all, they died for your freedom of speech as much as anyone else's.

BTW, those that say there is not enough done on Remembrance Day to work for peace... what are you, some kind of robot open to brainwashing? If that's what you want then that is exactly what you can do. That is certainly what happened in the service I led on Sunday. We remembered, we were grateful, we recognised the folly of war, and pledged ourselves to work to ensure war will always be the last possible option. You could do that too, instead of moaning about the way others observe Remembrance.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

I'd suggest that anyone here whoever doubts the reasoning behind the British Legion Poppy Apeal, goes to the imperial war museum. Some very harrowing and humbling stuff inside.

4th floor - Genocide
3rd - Floor Holocaust
1st floor - Victoria Cross/George Cross
LG - Trench Warfare exhibit.

 

[alan partridge]

Would LI or OTLW let me know as a white Hetrosexual English Man how I should recognise my identity or Express it?

How about all the other millions? i.e. completely unhindered?

Just a thought

 

[3gulls]

Mate, this is f***ing bullshit. Our parents/grandparents/great parents etc fought and died in the wars we remember.

By celebrating what these people did for us we are not forgetting anyone else who has died or somehow devaluing there lives.

I find it extremely offensive that you would criticise people for remembering the members of our own families.

Spot on. These low-lifes that question Rememberence Day are just....

 

[On the Left Wing]

they died for your freedom of speech as much as anyone else's.

Juan .... I usually agree with most of what you post, but that is one of the biggest myths ever perpetrated.

WWI - was all about British and German imperialism. Kaiser Wilhelm never threatened our freedom of speech! The war itself was bound up over outdated 19th century political alliances and should NEVER have started - Britain and France were as much to blame as Greater Germany. But as always history is written by the victors!

WWII - Britain, the US and France created Hitler by the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations. We successfully pummeled Germany and the Germans so far into the dirt that they accepted Hitler as their messiah. We (Britain) had the chance to stop WWII, two, five, 10 and almost 12 years before it started. We knew what Hitler and the Nazis were capable of, but it was politically and economically expedient to allow him power!

I believe similar arguments can be used to explain Vietnam and Iraq – it is a tried and tested method to demonise the enemy, smokescreen the facts and excuse the war!

Sorry Juan, but IMHO, there is no such thing as a Just war. Jesus taught us there is always another way.

 

[caz99]

Juan .... I usually agree with most of what you post, but that is one of the biggest myths ever perpetrated.

WWI - was all about British and German imperialism. Kaiser Wilhelm never threatened our freedom of speech! The war itself was bound up over outdated 19th century political alliances and should NEVER have started - Britain and France were as much to blame as Greater Germany. But as always history is written by the victors!

WWII - Britain, the US and France created Hitler by the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations. We successfully pummeled Germany and the Germans so far into the dirt that they accepted Hitler as their messiah. We (Britain) had the chance to stop WWII, two, five, 10 and almost 12 years before it started. We knew what Hitler and the Nazis were capable of, but it was politically and economically expedient to allow him power!

I believe similar arguments can be used to explain Vietnam and Iraq – it is a tried and tested method to demonise the enemy, smokescreen the facts and excuse the war!

Sorry Juan, but IMHO, there is no such thing as a Just war. Jesus taught us there is always another way.

jesus taught me bugger all. no one is trying excuse the war. but saying we should not remember the people who risked their lives for our freedom, if history is written by the victors how did you come by your opinion.

i will be on my march on sunday with the war veterans who gave up their freedom to fight for me and my rights, they are always chuffed to bits that i can be bothered to drag myself away from everything else that i could do in my life especially being a young person. to be honest it makes me sad and upset with people like you who have viewpoints like that. perhaps it would suit you that we just forgot about them.

dont even get me started on abortion

 

[Man of Harveys]

Many of those who fought in WW1 were volunteers. (So to are the Black Watch, as professional soldiers). The fact that so many volunteered for the trenches, knowing the risk) is one of the things that I remember. They volunteered to die for you and me so that we might be free.

Really? In WW1? And there was I thinking that they volunteered in their thousands in a fervent jingoistic frenzy which saw white feathers sent to those who thought that maybe it wasn't worth ending their lives for the sake of maintaining the European balance of power. Purlease, their sacrifice was awful enough without making out that your average Accrington Pal had some higher calling in mind beyond that of "my country right or wrong" and "let's all hang a dachshund" - they actually did this during WW1 because they thought they were German. How rational.

Sending soldiers into a spurious foreign war of highly dubious justification under some nebulous guise of spreading freedom in the world? Thankfully that sort of thing could never happen now...